Call Me What You Want's List: Hikikomori

• The theme of this quote is actually somewhat obvious as far as dealing with troubled people but it's a nice alternative image to consider even though it's not talking about Hikikomories.
• 10 Bizarre Rites of Passage

• I’m a resident of a rural area of Arizona. I have spoken with members of the Child Protective Services agencies of my area. Even agencies like these recognize that in some cases the “civilized” norm is not actually valid in all situations.

   

  Case in point, part of the AZ State strictures regarding the provision of adequate and hygienic housing for children precluded dirt floors in a home. Strict adherence to these strictures were REQUIRING that children in traditional Native American housing be removed from their family because of nothing more than the fact that these homes had hard pack floors. No physical or mental abuse, proper clothing, schooling etc. Just the fact that the floor was dirt. As it had been for generations. It took quite a lot time and effort, not to mention the emotional damage to the children and their families from the forced separation before state statutes were modified to allow for Native American tradition.
• Although my example does not involve anything as extreme as the rites from this list, it does convey the concept that not ALL situations can be properly governed by a blanket set of laws/rules.
• As a citizen of a Western culture I could never condone these actions against children of My society. But I also cannot in good conscience demand that a foreign society go through the horror and awkwardness of culture-shock because I choose to judge their ways through my eyes.

• I´d say Amen to that! save for the fear of starting yet another religious argument. In any case, I agree 100% with your comments. You cannot judge (or pretend to outlaw) a society´s traditions unless you are prepared to have them do the same to your own traditions. Who knows which traditions you hold dear wold be absolutely revolting / shocking / incomprehensible to some of these peoples…

   

  Silly example… Kids in the US move out of their parents´ homes when they graduate high school and go off to college. Sounds normal, right? It´s not necessarily that normal (or common) to people in South America. Most college kids here actually live at home with their parents until they graduate… and quite a few remain there until they get married. So which is “normal and civilized”?
• I don’t agree with the old imperialistic habit of storming into a foreign country and telling a society that all their traditions and rites are “wrong”. 

  But I do believe that your example of British interference in the affairs of India is an excellent example of why my point of view has validity.
• To storm into a culture and try to inject your values, (especially forcibly) leads to a questioning of that culture’s validity by it’s own members. It leads to an ugly form of undermined confidence in the youth in their own culture’s traditional values.
• they subjected the population to their idea of civility, but did not give the people even a modicum of equality to those who invaded.
• It cannot be denied that India ultimately DID profit from Western culture and it’s influence to their society, but it was only achieved AFTER India gained it’s freedom from British oppression, and took it’s destiny into it’s own hands. And it’s true that the practice of sati has been left behind, to history, but isn’t that also because India chose to embrace the legacy of Western culture and “come into the light” of modern society.
• you cannot judge a community by a universal blanket of acceptable behavior and standards
• if anyone has the right to step in and dictate to a small culture as those highlighted in this list, then it should be the people of the closest “modern” society to each of these tribes. These are the people who would have the greatest understanding of these small culture’s, and the greatest chance of guiding a successful ans smooth integration into the “modern” world for these indigenous peoples.

• My example of good intentions gone bad would be the practice of female castration, common throughout African nations. A great many of humanitarian groups and individuals crusaded through the continent to eradicate this “barbarian” practice/rite, that is traditional in both tribal and modernized communities.

   

  This lead to a great deal of inter-family and inter-community conflict. Even the young women that were being “protected” revolted against the campaign. They felt that to be denied this traditional rite made them pariahs, and “unclean”. It made them un-marriageable in their communities. The campaign that was launched to help these young girls/women from being mutilated was rejected by those it was meant to “save”. Even by women who lived a modern life by western standards.

   

  The practice still continues, and since it has started to take an “underground” status, where’s the medical help for the women whose rite went wrong?
• “What would you do if you had the choice of letting a sick tribal child be “treated” by a witch doctor or taking him forcibly to a modern hospital ?”

• If I were to be the one holding the power of life or death over the head of a sick tribal child, of course I would chose the proven capabilities of modern medicine. If it were up to me and my hypothetical powers, ALL sick people everywhere would be healed. (Probably not very practical on a global scale, come on, the Earth is only so big with x-amount of resources available.)

   

  No, I’m not gonna “forcibly” take that child. (Your word from the quotation.) I would just have to rely on my enviable powers of persuasion.
  Sorry I’m not going to put my life in jeopardy in the outback by trying to KIDNAP a child for my own sense of propriety.

   

  But the question of sick children is not apropos here on this list. Never in this list do we know if these tribes are recipients of humanitarian health efforts. Health care is not the topic of this list. And if it were, what about all the sick children in EVERY modern city’s population. Do we not owe those children the same concern that you want to give to these children of this list?

   

  Don’t try to paint me as an uncaring individual, I’m far from it. And I do believe that my caring nature is why I am speaking up for the validity of these rites to the people who practice them.

   

  Don’t try to make me come off as some sort of person (freak?) who condones or welcomes these activities listed, as proper and acceptable in modern communites.
  I DO NOT support or condone child abuse, or sexual exploitation/violence in any way.

   

  But I also believe that in the context shown in this list, these may not be the most accurate terms to define the activities of these rites.

   

  I also believe that to have these rites opened up on a tourist basis to the outside world is a reprehensible practice and says more about those who would buy a ticket than those who sell it.

   

  One last point. What about the sociologists who have studied these tribes and brought their practices into the limelight of society? Why have no commenters of this list brought them up to bear for leaving these people to continue their rites after they have had their chance to study and publish their findings for the sake of “science” and enlightenment?

   

  And what are YOU doing to help bring these people “up to snuff” now that YOU know of their existence and horrible doings?
• Did the British invaders respect the Indian way of life ? No, they didn’t. However, that does not make all of the steps they took incorrect.

• Think about it. Did the British rulers outlaw idol worship which was and still is a very prominent feature of Indian culture but completely in conflict with Western mores ? Did they outlaw the study of Sanskrit, Arabic or Persian ? Did they force the Hindu population to take up beef consumption and the Muslim population to take up pork consumption ?

   

  They didn’t. They did all they could to preach their definitions of right and wrong, tried every underhanded trick to deprecate India’s cultural values and treated Indians reluctant to suck up to them as worms; and I condemn all of that as much as you do. When it comes to “Sati” though, I find what they did a welcome change in Hindu society. Muslim emperors in the past had tried to do the same, were met with resistance, and ultimately failed to eradicate it, but the Brits succeeded and I laud them for it.
• Female Genital Mutilation is another valid point that you mention. The attempts at banning it have resulted in various adverse consequences. In some places the practice has taken on a new importance as a feature of cultural identity in face of external forces to diminish it. In others it has only forced the practice underground where it is even riskier. While this highlights the importance of the method to be adopted in eliminating such practices, it does not detract from the fact that these practices ’should’ be eliminated. Local initiatives, which do not outright insult prevalent cultural norms and do not give rise to vehement xenophobia are certainly important. Even in the case of Sati, Indian social reformers like Raja Rammohan Roy stood up against the practice and this helped the movement to a good extent.
• Two observations I would like to make here are the following.
• 1) A practice which seems barbaric to an external society and normal to the practicing society will very often be perfectly acceptable and even desirable to the victims themselves. The victims’ volition does not make the practice any more acceptable than a child’s permission to being subjected to acts whose consequences he/she does not understand makes statutory rape okay. A lot of teenagers find drug use enjoyable and might find it hard to refuse out of peer pressure, but that does not make it any less important for responsible adults to compel them to quit and go into rehab if necessary, by all means possible.

• 2) Sometimes you have the choice of solving a problem nice and slow … strategizing, making policies, consulting people, expressing reverence for native customs etc …

   

  At other times, you have to take decisions on the spot, without the luxury of armchair meditations, and take risks for a greater good. This is what brings us to my and your second posts resp.

• First up, I wasn’t asking you a Miss Universe question, I was giving you a choice that is faced on a much larger scale by governments of several nations. I completely agree with you that tactless force can further worsen the situation, so the process of providing modern medical facilities to sick people who might not be aware of their existence or effectiveness should be approached with care and respect. However, faced with the precise choice that I outlined in my previous post, I would prescribe and practice force. Would that always be possible considering that I might end up dead trying to retrieve a sick child ? No … not always. Would that lead to further complications ? Likely yes. But whenever possible, I’ll do my best to save a life now and worry about ostracization later.

   

  As for sociologists, I don’t think they wield enough power to bring about the changes that I’ve been supporting and you’ve been questioning. They are society’s eyes and ears along with photographers and journalists. If any of them had a good chance to prevent, say, a ritual murder and didn’t do it out of scholarly interests, then I condemn his action too.

   

  As for children in cities, I do think that they should be treated too … where did I indicate otherwise ?

   

  I totally agree with you about the people who come to watch the jumpers in Vanuatu being more depraved than the ones who try to make a profit out of it. That is also the feeling that I reserve for spectators in bullfights in Spain, just in case you felt I was biased in favor of European/Western cultures.

   

  What have “I” done for these people, now that “I” am aware of their horrible doings ? Why, I have shared my opinions on this most esteemed website with complete strangers and proceeded to purchase front-row tickets to watch the next round of Harmar cow jumping with castrated females from sub-Saharan Africa, while wearing a baby seal waistcoat and eating illegally hunted shark fins.
• I have not had an opportunity to make a difference, but that should not restrict my right to express my thoughts freely.
• I acknowledge the presence of vast grey areas in the landscape of what is right and wrong but I have pointed out some things that I do not see as grey.

• I believe our discussion can be honed to one response, so here goes.

   

  To your observances about Indian culture and the eradication of sati, I agree with what you have expressed, although I will clarify for myself that I laud the Indians. Primarily for the fact that they have chosen to lay the practice of sati by the wayside, when they could have easily reinstated it’s importance to their society upon their gain of freedom.

   

  Since it was the British that made India aware of their potential participation in the scheme of world-wide trade, politics and cultural exchange, and the standards of living and moral and ethical values involved in such an exchange, then the Brits should receive their due as well.
• Taking us to the observations you have made:

• 1.) Peer pressure and isolated acts of abuse do not equal community collective consciousness and tribal ritual initiation. These activities/rites are not engaged in for the purpose of personal gratification on behalf of the elders presiding. Death of the participants is in NO way the desired outcome of these rites. Quite the opposite. The survival of the teens in question is foremost in the minds of the elders. For how else can these newly matured kids be of service to their families and their community.

   

  Not to mention that these are the beloved children of the elders performing the rites. NO ONE on Earth could love these children more than their parents and close neighbors.

   

  And if you accept those two above mentioned concepts, then…

• 2.) Yes. The task of “educating” and “modernizing” SHOULD be well planned and incorporated. Should be slow and methodical. Of course, this would mean assimilating these communities into “our” society. Thus changing permanently or possibly making these tribes EXTINCT. (Obviously none of the tribes mentioned in this list are in the position of ever becoming an “India”. i.e. The difference between a tribe and a nation.)

   

  But I don’t see circumstances, except in the extreme, (as in natural disaster, control of epidemic infection, or being in the direct path of modern warfare), for big brother to have to initiate an abrupt and shocking change to the ideology of these people.

   

  I have read and re-read your comments #112, and for the most part it seems that you and I are actually on the same page.

   

  For the sake of our discussion I would like to point out that my original comments were aimed at those whose initial response here was “That’s barbaric and unacceptable and should be outlawed immediately if not sooner!” (Not verbatim, but the general gist of the combined comments.)
• I hope the fact that this is a bad analogy doesn't dull the similarity between what these people talked about and what's missing with how some people approach Hikikomories.
• The thing is, unless there are signs of physical abuse, a Hikikomori once committing a crime has no valid moral comeback to represent his actions anymore and at the same time, a Hikikomori who hasn't committed a crime can't really justify that they are in the right by warning someone that they will try to hurt them if said people tried to forcefully invade their identity. (nor will warnings often be heeded otherwise people wouldn't have invaded the Hikikomori's room)
• While it's true that unlike the conversation above, Hikikomories are seen as a negative act precisely because they're anti-dominant culture rather than a part of it but it is also somewhat true that for some Hikikomories, once they become one, the lifestyle becomes their dominant culture.
• part of the reason why some of them can succeed at shocking people they live with by suddenly becoming a Hikikomori is because the people they live with are the ones who actually don't pay attention to them and they miss the signs until suddenly it's in their face.
• That's why pre-Hikikomori people can suddenly turn the Hikikomori lifestyle to their dominant lifestyle: they used their current environment to make them smoothly "assimilate" their identity to their current culture until "they exist as Hikikomories".
• Unfortunately some people, particularly humiliated parents who live with them, interpret it the opposite way. They think it's a fad or a sudden action and like many things sometimes they either try to fix things "their" cultural way and it endangers them if not flat-out causes the Hikikomori to murder them.
• This doesn't justify the Hikikomori's actions from a "social moral compass" perspective but it hopefully sheds some clues as to how the fight and flight mechanics of Hikikomories work. (at least for some of us although I haven't experienced this situation nor am I a Hikikomori who has done a crime while I was a Hikikomori)
• It's actually very in-line with the philosophy behind liberty particularly the harm principle. A Hikikomori sometimes turn Hikikomori not only as a flight response but as a "fair" response: That is even though from some outsider's perspective they are asking to be fed and wanting the right to be lazy and hold back people who live with them, in their mind, they are doing the one thing that allows them to live their life without imposing who they are to others and imposing only themselves to themselves. (Of course this particular issue avoids mental disappointments they cause to others but this is among the disputed areas for liberty too.
• That's why this "sacrificial" mindset gets changed to fight when another person tries to impose their will on the Hikikomori. Particularly in the subject of getting them out of their rooms. This doesn't mean Hikikomories are unable to resist hurting someone but it is a predictable reaction they may have because it is indeed true that the invader didn't handle their approach well and considered and understood their cultural mindset.

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• http://www.anonib.com/hikikomori/

• Hikkikomori Forum:

   

  http://hikikomori.getphpbb.com/

  • Possibly at risk of being abandoned as of this bookmark.
  Add Sticky Note

• HikiCulture:

   

  http://hikiculture.prophpbb.com/forum25.html

  • Possibly a spam forum per my blog post here: http://hiki.posterous.com/is-hikiculture-turning-more-and-more-into-a-s
  Add Sticky Note

• I am a Hikikomori

   

  http://www.experienceproject.com/group_stories.php?g=142181&s=d

• Ok, I was banned for the second time in HikiCulture (I don’t know the reason why. It could have something to do with that announcement that something changed in their profiles but since I never put any data in there, I never bothered tweaking it but soon I saw my account/posts disappear despite remaining active.

   

  In fact, my account was deleted around the same time I wrote a reply. It wasn’t a controversial one and it was attributing the fact that despite the admin’s criticisms with the HikiPhpBB forum, the member base growth remained the same and in fact, the previous forum probably had more Hikikomori related topics although it wasn’t the fault of the forum design as there were certain key members that stopped being active at around the time the forum required these members to stay active.
• This is why I’m not attributing it to a case of breaking some obscure rule but treat this as a warning if you plan to join that forum.
• I normally don’t like re-joining forums so I won’t be signing up for another account there. I did sign up a 2nd time because at the time, my first trial was so short I wasn’t able to preview most of the forum’s contents.)
• Also, this reply was related to the fact that the Hikikomori PhpBB board has been particularly inactive to the point that there are days where new posts don’t even appear. (Previously you could spot 1 or 2 active members)
• The Experience Project link also seems to have been a footnote since I haven’t seen any new topic there.

• For those looking for a board to talk about Hikikomori issues, as much as I’m ashamed that an attention whore thread got this high in Reddit, that’s probably where we are left with right now judging by this topic:

   

  http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9k7kk/i_was_a_hikikomori_and_didnt_leave_the_house_for/
• Note that despite having a Reddit account, it’s been awhile since I participated and that I never was ever part of any core during those days so I don’t know how to guarantee getting the right amount of attention to any topic you make.
• My bad. After reading this comment: http://hikkikomori.tumblr.com/post/180526740#comment-16642104 it looks like the AnonIB Board is up with a new link.

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• Bullshit theory time. Suppose there’s an evolutionary advantage to this: namely, it counteracts excessive nurturing.
• Parents typically encourage their offspring, and do not always provide a realistic assessment of their abilities. Their desire is to see the child grow up and pass on their traits to another generation.
• It’s advantageous for their offspring to feel confident in their abilities. Other people, however, want to promote their own genes. They’re quick to offer discouragement and negative assessments of the individual’s ability.
• When the individual finds these people were correct about the outcome of some event. The individual learns the parents assessment has deviated from reality and begins to question the veracity of other statements because correct identification and compensation for their weaknesses is essential to achieving reproductive success.

• All untestable assumptions, and built on a shaky understanding of evolutionary psychology. In other words, “…more research is needed.”

   

  Also, more coffee. Kin I gets mah grant now?
• http://anonarchive.hikiculture.com/contentpane.php?thread=352

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• I can appreciate that painting someone as ignorant, narrow-minded, or generally lacking perspective is a tactic of debate, especially on message boards, because it’s a way of asserting yourself as an intellectual superior. But before, you accuse me of being an ‘idealistic moralizer’ consider the image that you might be projecting as someone who resorts to tired conventions of online arguments.
• From an un-Hikikomori related topic in IMDB.
• It’s still surprising how I can talk to people one on one on the internet and they would share something personal but then they would end it with something like “Nevermind. I’m just ranting now.”
• The truth of the matter is that rants can be one of the most sincere and honest form of conveying yourself to another person.
• Yes, if everyone tolerated every rant, we’d be knee-deep in emo mud but at the same time, to a person who really cares for the substance of what another person is saying — Rants mixed with reasoning can serve as the coup de grace to many doubts on how you feel about a topic.
• It is the knife that slashes through the hypocrisy of the sounds coming out of our mouths we call “typing”.
• It is honest emotion sharpening honest emotion and it unintentionally produces the “grain of truth” that is often ignored and under-noticed when not said; but often becomes “stating the obvious” when unearthed and posted in all it’s simplistic but underrated glory.
• In this case, this rant shows how easy it is to potshot people under the traditional rules of the internet.
• Most internet veterans know what I mean.
• The usual “you’re banned from this forum due to flaming, trolling and spamming” was never good enough. Even an internet who read Flame Warriors know it’s not enough.
• (Edit: even an internet newb)
• The problem is that most internet admins and mods think it’s good enough.
• The irony though is that by settling on the idea that the old rules are the basic rules and that anyone trying to change them is only being politically correct, the lack of renewed ethical perspective for this view has created the modern day internet version of the “Politically Corrects”.
• One that is exclusive to the internet in that depending on what place and what culture you stumble on, you can be a troll for opposing someone’s view where as elsewhere you can go to hell and high water to become a troll — and you won’t get accused of trolling — while the frustrated victim ends up being called the troll and that’s if BOTH of you didn’t get punished.
• This has become a whole mish-mash of subjective nonsense that popular internet surfers like to excuse as proof for the “diversity” within the internet when in reality — like real life political correctness — it’s essentially just a monotonous, parodic,  predictable and conformistic-producing mindset that is keeping the internet from improving socially as it has technologically.
• as Internet Hikikomoris we have a special role in this ecosystem!
• we are composed of people who like to claim they are just suffering from social anxiety disorder while others want to claim we are doing this for a reason.
• If you’re a neutral observer who stumbled upon our community though, would you say we were among the top eschelon for pioneering a better place for discussions over the internet? Even if you lower your standards to “Hikikomori 2 Hikkikomori” discussions?

  • No
  Add Sticky Note
• Even if you just narrowed it down to the ratio of polite users?

  • No
  Add Sticky Note
• The bottomline, as it stands, is that we’re no better and no worse as a community than most other internet communities.
• Now why is that bad?
• Because most of us know and admit that we are socially unorthodox.
• Now we can be socially unorthodox and accept most people’s assumptions that we are below average pathetic little social creatures or we can be socially unorthodox and use other people’s criticism of us as opportunities to make ourselves socially above average.
• The dissenters might counter with the cliche “Why settle for those two choices?”
• I would counter by saying it’s because we’re special that way that we can afford to have these two choices pushed against our faces and still be able to afford other choices.
• This is nature’s way of asking whether we want to adapt (and accept that we are special) or conform (and accept that we are normal).
• This is where we as Hikikomoris in our baby form of a community decide whether we want to learn to walk faster than the rest of the babies or go back to being among those who crawl and hope by doing so, we can crawl just as fast as the average baby barring the few talented among us.
• This is our quest, our destiny to change
• …and the crossroads we must make
• …and the crossroads we must take
• …AS a community
• …and NO. I’m not saying we should be a group who becomes stricter with how we treat each other and better at filtering and separating the rude and inflexible ones from the polite and inflexible ones so that we may not start flame wars
• I’m asking of us to push our group, our individual ethical standards and our community to become more accepting of diverse social interactions by being able to welcome both those who are rude and flexible and those who are polite and flexible so that we may start the breeding ground for a community that can be flexible yet intolerable to those who want to toe the line and pretend not to be trolls, flamers, potshotters
• For the full conversation, see the Tumblr link: http://hikkikomori.tumblr.com/post/176483754
• You provide the opposite point too that taking a troll too seriously is really asking for a grenade to be thrown and lay waste to the population of a community.
• However, this is where flexibility matters over politeness.
• That we must have resources to "prepare" those newer to the internet or with more sensitive emotions so that they can improve and hopefully to give room so that those better than us can be given incentive and motivation to improve us.
• Problem is, there's not enough part in preparing for this situations either.
• Time and time again, it's mostly cliche that the popular sites are often the one that gets the most support to have the site back and up as soon as possible. (although one might argue that they're the most likely to be targetted either)
• Another cliche is that people often try to reproduce or leave a "destroyed"/"block offed" site.
• There's just very little incentive for the community to rebuild their homes (outside of the white knight programmer and admin) when it has been slammed hard.
• That's because there's very little sense of community over the internet.
• Even among the widely touted friendly communities when compared to real world communities. The two just doesn't compare. Not only in quality but in desire to meet that quality.
• The sad part is that most Hikikomoris probably feel the same way for these internet Hikikomori boards.
• That's something that many internet communities can afford to though.
• That's why I stated we can choose to be below average or above average.
• At least normal people (even nerds and geeks) know that once they stop posting and move on to a new topic or a new site, they don't care about it anymore or that their care goes mostly past making snap judgements and comments.
• Hikikomoris don't have that same luxury with regards to Hikikomori-related topics
• Each of us have experienced some form of social withdrawal to understand that we require a higher set of standard to accommodate us.
• That we are the ones most likely to feel passionate about changing
• and the fact that this situations we are in don't disappear with a blink of an eye or a drop of a project should count for something.
• But it often doesn't count for much.

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• I actually got 3 emotions from this one: Happy, Sad and Glad.

• The happy part is actually pretty shallow. Most of it revolved around the first replier of the thread mentioning my username. It’s actually not that funny except it just makes me laugh at the fact that regardless of all the insults that’ve been thrown on me the past few days: …sometimes the Occam’s Razor of interpreting such words tend to be simpler and more straightforward.

   

  In this case, the fact that someone thought it might’ve been me wasn’t any revelation and I’m not even sure if it’s written by someone who has anything against me but just the thought that someone would immediately associate me with any post that’s lengthy just gives me a bit of the chuckles.
• Anyway the happy part is that finally someone can post something “long” in that board and not actually get trolled. (at least as of this writing)
• I am, however, a bit wary that the OP might instead be the troll. (but that’s based more on my disappointment of his post which I’ll get into more depth below.)

• First though:

   

  some of the notable comments so far: (Italicized words are my own thoughts)

• #1

  “I had in mind several examples like lao tzu. perhaps the following will be of interest.

  a well-known teacher of buddhism, bodhidharma, developed or practiced a special sort of meditation technique.

  what was this technique? he sat in a cave and stared at a wall. some legends say for various years, etc. this is a valid meditation technique, called Wall-Gazing. tell me, is this not the practice of a recluse? ask the ordinary guy on the street if staring at a blank wall for more than five seconds sounds appealing!”

• I don’t actually consider this a good point. It is too far fetched and stretches itself to affirm a point.

   

  However wall gazing could be an interesting subject for those who aren’t familiar with it. I didn’t do any research on it but I once came upon an anecdote that compared it to the Ganzfeld Effect which if you haven’t heard about, is a pretty interesting albeit controversial experiment on achieving ESP.

   

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_experiment

   

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_effect

   

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

   

  As far as meditations go, it’s not totally a reclusive task in my opinion. It should be much more equated to a person watching a bunch of ants walk around or a common man relaxing as he observes his fishes swimming in the aquarium. That’s my minimum assertion of it anyhow. I understand that it can be done with a much “higher” purpose in mind but one action does not equal the entirety of reclusivity.

• “these people were like some of us, just fully devoted to their spiritual path and unencumbered by worries about their social lives. in fact, it seems absurd to think of any of humanity’s spiritual greats as even existing within the social order.

  they were so much themselves, so fully integrated in their individuality that they could do little but live as they felt most natural to their being, which was often in aloneness.

  there’s a beautiful sanskrit word, KAIVALYA

  what does it mean? aloneness

  total, pure, aloneness”

• I don’t actually know if the word matches with the definition but hopefully you can see through the “almost hero-worship tone” in this sentence. That’s a major part of why the original post rubbed me the wrong way and I gained some suspicion that it might be a troll. The writer seems to feel that the act alone (separating all motives and goals) is immediately deserving of praise.

   

  That said it’s not too farfetched to think that a normal person might think this.

• “”i was talking to some dude a while ago who hears voices. i wonder if anyone has tried getting those people to do meditation instead of drugging them up. do hindus have crazy people or do they find some balance or whatever?”“

   

  “it’s very common, or was, in the east to treat people with ‘mental disorders’ as potent receptacles for spiritual teachings

  they call them masts

  there’s a similarity between such a person and the mystic, because both have basically dropped out of the common run of the world

  the madman exists outside of the social circle

  the mystic also exists outside of the social circle

  interestingly, meditation techniques generally don’t approach on the basis of stopping thought in a violent way, but in advocating a sort of passive detachment and witnessing of thoughts, which are seen to float like clouds in the sky

  a person who ‘hears voices’, if taught these methods, could at least see them for what they are

  besides, we think of those people as if they’re crazy, because they hear thoughts that they aren’t consciously thinking

  yet if you sit down undistracted for a few minutes you’ll find that your own thoughts rise like waves without your consent or without your willing them

  so there is a similarily.

  anyway i just wanted to clarify that i don’t mean for people to continue living as they are and just label it with a positive term, there needs to be a significant change at some point”
• To me this is a very dangerous answer. As a person who has seen a Shaman-like person at work before (but not personally known) and have watched and read some of the benefits these kinds of healer can often provide over modern medicine, (often times in relating to a mental illness), I can understand the validity of this person’s words.
• However, one but need to read the wikipedia article on Pythia (The Oracle of Delphi) and to hear some of James Randi’s debunkings of Western psychics to know that this isn’t a movement totally without criticism…or deluded fakes.
• Stating that the comment isn’t intended as a positive label isn’t good enough.
• The comment comes off as too general, too sure and too lumping of two indirect forces that might not be related to each other. If the person should wish to imply… EVEN motivate a person who hears voices to pursue a path of mysticism, they must at least strongly define how to pursue that path in the least dangerous and most valid manner according to what they know of.
• Such post can too easily create the impression that all you need is to hear voices in order to be a good mystic and that: insults both mystics and madmen.

• “what i mean overall is that the hiki/reclusive way of living in general is very close to how many if not most of the, for lack of a better term, spiritual giants of the past lived, and it is even prescribed in many monastic orders

  in fact, many monastic practices involve such intense levels of seclusion that even the most devoted hiki here could not manage. for example in tibetan buddhism they have a practice called ‘dark retreat’ where a monk goes into a sealed room or cave where all light is completely blocked out. here he stays for however long it is deemed necessary. his food is brought to him and he does nothing but meditate in the darkness on the darkness. there’s a special reason for it - in total darkness there’s nothing you can see. even the concept of spatial distances dissolves in darkness, you cannot tell if a wall is right in front of you or you are in boundless space. this allows the mind to quickly and intensively dissolve all of its attachments and deep states of trance become easily available.”

• Here the writer alludes to one of my major criticisms of his post in that he has this “loose” manner of equating any spiritual act as befitting the statuses of giants.

   

  I’m sure the writer didn’t intend it to be this way but he might as well have equated the actions of a Buddha to that of a budding beginner monk.

• It’s not totally wrong as most spiritual acts have a flexible hierarchy compared to the strict rigidity of something like the Catholic Church where a Pope has a definitive upper authority over a deacon.

   

  (But still, there must be context for if one ignores that then they are basically left with cherry picking events that suit their arguments.)
• Case in point with this dark cave comment where instead of the act being praised and understood in much better context, the theme ends up being muddied by this phrase “even the most devoted hiki here could not manage” and thus turning it into a shallow statement of “Doodz! Look-what-teh-monk-can-do! HARDCORE mahn, no way you can do that.”
• Nevertheless I find the actual definition of the act sound enough for those who aren’t familiar with it.
• I don’t see much of a problem with this follow-up comment either:

• “”Could you talk some more about how you came to see this as a path?”“

   

  “i don’t see the average hiki/reclusive life as the path itself, but it comes very close to it. the teachings, which vary differently throughout each tradition, generally involve cutting away one’s attachments to the world. it’s not necessary to leave the social world to do this but it makes it much easier if you’re living a mostly solitary life.

  what is not spoken about in popular expositions of these traditions and practices is that they seek to de-condition the mind so that it’s natural again. consider: we’ve all grown up around others and our minds have been FILLED with all sorts of things. all of this hides our real nature. what is a thought or a belief? one person runs around fighting over his thoughts against someone who is fighting for his thoughts. it’s absurd, and they don’t even know it. behind and beyond those thoughts - pure consciousness, which can only be merged with when the mirror of the mind has been cleaned, then it reflects the truth.

  in my first post i said that the hiki/reclusive way of life may be a sort of unconscious longing for these traditional spiritual paths. for others and perhaps most it might just be the obvious - circumstance, personal weaknesses, and laziness. but i know that for myself it’s the former - i was very much a loner even as a child and until i dived deeply into understanding these ancient ways both intellectually and experientially i could not understand why. then it became absolutely clear - i’m just the type of person who in other cultures and in older times would’ve renounced the world to seek whatever you want to call it.

  consider the beloved and world famous story of buddha - he was basically, according to the legend and history, a prince with EVERYTHING. all the things that people long for, he had. wealth, women, everything. and he was going to inherit the kingdom after his father. except, what did he do? around age 29 he left the palace. left not only his father, all his possessions, but also his wife and child, and went into the forest to become a sannyasin, which means a world renunciate, and he spent time learning various spiritual disciplines and meditations until he attained his awakening. it was only then that he spent the rest of his life in public helping others attain the same state. however that was not necessary -

  here’s an interesting quote:

  Should you destroy vain imaginings, desires,
  which form the very web of time;
  Should you realize the Lord, all-pervading
  and yet untouched and pure,
  You may live the life of a householder,
  Or a hermit’s life in a hermitage,
  living the truth that you have known.”

• …I know people much more in the know would not consider the information “good” at all even at the basic level (though they may appreciate the intention of the writer), however as far as simplistic definitions go this has enough content to motivate an unknowing person to consider that kind of spiritual path.

   

  For something more modernly considered though equally basic, I would still opt for Matthieu Ricard’s TedTalk over what the poster wrote.
• Also don’t forget to check Dan Gilbert’s more pragmatic reply to Ricard’s comments in this link:
• Premature Ejaculation

• Unfortunately while currently editing this draft (Aug. 18, 2008) AnonIB is down once more so I couldn’t refer to the other post.

   

  It took me this long to post mostly because <insert excuse; I have encountered internet problems which further made me procrastinate my reply.>

• Moving ahead…

   

  My accusations of trolling can simply be summed in one sentence:
• Not only has the theme been used by trolls in the past before but it’s basically a post without much meat to it and is entirely based on copy-pasting and quoting Lao-Tzu.
• Even when asked to share some links, the writer’s most notable link was sacred-texts.com and two non-notable spirituality related links. (This was purely from memory of the replies I was able to view due to AnonIB being up. It was also supposed to be the next reply I was going to add as notable so it remains fresh in my mind.)
• I’m sorry, sacred-texts.com is great and all but if you’re a person who has done much research in the topic, surely you can better supply some much more worthwhile links than a popular site many know of already.
• I’m not saying people shouldn’t even bother linking to the site but at least give some specific links even if it’s just specific links within the site.
• the only thing I can gather that were this user’s own opinion was that of his “call to action”. Everything else relies on you being woo-wooed by the quotes he used and by the terms he refers to
• “the eastern mind is introverted, the western mind is extroverted”
• This is just wrong even on a stereotypical level. It sounds more like someone has been watching too many badly researched Western movies
• “the eastern mind looks for god within, the western mind looks for god without”
• Another common assumption I often read from someone who’s disgusted by Western Christianity but are wowed by Eastern spirituality because they heard some itsy bitsy stuff about it.
• I am not a follower of Lao Tzu nor have I done any in-depth research on him but if we’re going to just follow the Lao Tzu that has been written in his post, he (the writer) would fit the bill of one who needs to tell everyone the sunset is beautiful.
• It’s not that Lao Tzu asks of everyone to be mute around him.
• …Nor does he necessarily have a vendetta against chatterboxes. (because if he does, he’s basically being a pothead and calling the kettle black based on what he did at the end of the story)
• Rather, the words the man spoke of kills thought and so the man by speaking out something he shouldn’t even be saying becomes a chatterbox who talks over you while you’re studying and thus making it very hard to concentrate on the content you’re trying to absorb.
• You could even say that, to a man like Lao Tzu, the man is committing a worse atrocity in that the man isn’t shattering your homework but your life’s work.
• By stating something obvious about the sunset, the man is transforming Lao Tzu’s grasp of reality into that of a play or in more modern times, a movie.
• By unconsciously dumbing down the event, the common man, or even some uncommon flawed personality (like say a Lao Tzu), is drawn to the 2d and elementary idea of a beautiful sunset as opposed to the 3d reality of the world.
• To Lao Tzu, the man is synonymous of any man who had the potential to constantly distract any questing person and thus reduce their chances of realizing something great down by 99%.
• By Lao Tzu’s train of thought, if he really wanted to cherish the sunset’s beauty or the sound of the man’s voice, he’d have busied his time trying to invent a tape recorder or a camera instead of watching the sunset.
• (Or more practically, he might even had settled for a recurring play about a sunset or a beautiful picture of one everytime the setting of the sun hasn’t occured yet.)
• Yes, there was a chance that on this particular day/time/event, the sunset was much more enchanting.
• Maybe even the best and most beautiful sunset that Lao Tzu could’ve seen in his entire lifetime.
• But that’s the thing…
• If this were the case, then Lao Tzu would still have increased his chances of missing this fact because the man when he says “what a beautiful sunset” isn’t paying attention to the sun or valuing the sunset at all. The man when he says those words is merely practicing a form of small talk or even worst, a form of ignorant self-indulgence. One that breeds the type of people that would be apathetic towards what they sense. One that in the long term fulfills the statement of “looking without seeing, hearing without listening, talking without speaking, smelling without caring, breathing without living”.
• And to a man like Lao Tzu who seeks to raise himself higher than drag himself down, the man’s actions goes beyond that of inducing apathy. The man has in fact unconsciously summoned a zombiefication spell that works particularly well on a guy like Lao Tzu. One who’s apathy induction is merely part of the early symptoms. One who’s full “disease” is first the reduced effectiveness of one’s senses, then later the mental zombiefication of one’s individuality, then further later becomes the self-destruction of one’s own desires and dreams and then finally the critical thinking mind.
• Said formula redirects him, transforms him, forces him to convince himself that the lower path IS the higher path: That the beautiful sunset is in fact what makes the sun setting beautiful…
• That man needs to be kept away like the plague he was less he (Lao Tzu) succumbs to the spell before he meditates the proper anti-mentality that would help him defend against such an intrusive thought.
• (Yep, I perceive Lao Tzu as a big douche based on the texts given by the poster.)
• In the same way… the writer by letting his observations for the similarity of Hikkikomoris and reclusivity, convince himself to write the above post; ended up making his post mimick that of the chattering man rather than creating the proper intention of introducing us to Lao Tzu.
• He, like the chattering man, wanted to invite us the readers (or at least us the Hikkikomoris) to something he himself finds endearing.
• Yet like the chattering man who invites us to appreciate the beauty of the sunset, the writer invites us to follow the spirituality of Lao Tzu not by following it but by merely telling us to follow it because we remind him of recluses.

• I’m not claiming to understand Lao Tzu better than the writer though.

   

  Rather I’m just comparing the pattern of Lao Tzu’s words to the theme of the writer’s post.

• If we were to rephrase the words in such a way that they address the writer’s post, Lao Tzu would have said something along the lines of:

   

  He speaks too much! A Hikikomori who believes he’s a recluse already accepts that he is a recluse. A Hikkikomori who does not think of himself as a recluse already knows that he is not. Where is the need to tell a man who he is if you are already trying to convince them to follow my teachings? Should my teachings not already start to transform them into who they are rather than who they were? Or do you believe these people need not change anything at all to follow my teachings? If this is so, what is the point of trying to convince them to become someone they already are? He is just a man wanting you to feel good!
• If you are interested in encouraging Hikkikomoris to follow a more spiritual path, know your own level of spiritual understanding as to prevent those swayed by you from getting off to the wrong start.
• There’s alot of helpful and beneficial things spirituality can impart. Even in his post:
• “who else could clear muddy water
  by quieting it?”
• “who else could move clear water
  by bringing it to life?”
• “whoever keeps to the way
  does not want to be full.
  not full, he can practice
  concealment instead of accomplishment.”
• “does not boast his merits,
  hence he survives.”
• “does not compete with anyone,
  hence no one beneath heaven
  can compete with him.”
• “the farther you go,
  the less you know.”
• “thus the sage
  knows without walking,
  sees without looking,
  and does without doing.”
• “as soon as you take a single step away from yourself in the search for lasting meaning and truth, you are lost!”
• “the sage does nothing;
  therefore he spoils nothing.
  he grasps nothing;
  therefore he loses nothing.”

•  

   

  “learns to unlearn his learning”
• Wikipedia article on Unschooling
• Yet in the hands of a speaker who fears to admit he is no master, such words become the cousin of one who does not know how a Hikikomori can be based on a philosophical pursuit.
• There are many Hikikomoris who, like any human, may benefit from being shared a spirituality. What they don’t need is to be turned into an Eastern version of a hippie. (a philosophical movement where you can instantly belong based merely on how often you act and dress similarly to their stereotype)
• I request future spiritual inviters to genuinely consider the spirituality behind their beliefs whenever they write such posts.
• Sure it’s easy to hand out some text just as it’s easy to hand out a Bible to someone who just had a miraculous experience but there’s a spiritual path and there’s a call to jump on the cultwagon. At least make the effort to know the difference before you invite someone to your cause.

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• What can I possibly say that you haven’t thought a thousand times already?
• Well, “something”, I hope. After all, it’s my job to come up with things to say —— things to get people talking.
• If you’re like most people, on the other hand, you probably spend most of your time every day watching what you say, for fear that blurting out your insensitive thoughts might bring about adverse repercussions, whether at home, at work, or in your social life.
• After all … everybody has to get along. Right?
• Nope —— not me!
• You see, I’m one of the rare people you know who has a job perfectly matched to his personality type. It appears that I somehow failed to develop the convenient social skill of keeping my yap shut. Even before I knew I had a mind, I had a penchant for speaking it. And I’ve been developing my skills in that department ever since.
• Of course, in a lot of ways, we’re alike, you and I.
• When you wake up in the morning and listen to the news or read a newspaper, you probably think, “What the hell are these people thinking?” The only difference is, you then cruise off to work and make a studied effort to keep your ill-tempered thoughts to yourself for the rest of the day. When I wake up, hear those same news reports, and think the same thing —— “What in the hell are these idiots thinking?” —— I’m lucky enough to be able to do something about it.
• Such is the life of the radio talk-show host.
• From the Introduction page of Neil Boortz’s book, Somebody Has Got to Say It
• I haven’t read past the Introduction though. (I think Amazon once suggested it be bought alongside Ron Paul’s The Revolution: A Manifesto.)
• On the plus side, the author did say he wrote the Introduction part last. Hopefully that counts for something.

• Oh and if you’re like me and has no idea who Neil Boortz is, here’s another excerpt from the Introduction page:

   

  “One thing I’ve been rather proud of during my talk radio career is the number of conservatives who complain that I’m too liberal, and the number of liberals who say I’m too far to the right. The poor libertarians? They think I don’t know where the hell I stand.”

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• This film is true about human nature. It clearly sees needs and desires. It is not universal, but within its particular focus, it is unrelenting.
• Steven Soderbergh’s “The Girlfriend Experience” is about a prostitute and her clients. In such a relationship, the factor of money makes the motives fairly direct on both sides.
• In the language of escort advertising, “GFE” promises a “girlfriend experience.” Sometimes sex may not even be involved, although it is implicitly permitted.
• The film involves a woman named Chelsea (Sasha Grey) and the men in her life. She has been living with one of them for 18 months, and in a way, he may be a boyfriend experience. He doesn’t seem much more meaningful to her than a client. The other men are of various ages and backgrounds, but they all have one thing in common: They are wealthy, and Chelsea is not inexpensive. Typically, they take her to an expensive restaurant and then a luxury hotel. They may send a limousine for her.
• We listen to them talking. We watch them talking. Most of them want to talk about what she does for a living. There is the polite fiction that she is talking about other men, hypothetical men, and not the one she is with. They like to give her advice about how to invest her money, and who to vote for (the story takes place during the 2008 campaign). Each one has some reason for thinking he is somehow special. Set during the run-up to the stock market crash, it shows both sides more interested in investing than sex.
• These men don’t want a girlfriend experience. They want a boyfriend experience. They want to feel as if they’re on a date. They will be listened to. Their amazing comments will be smiled at. Their hair will be tousled. They will be kidded. They have told Chelsea about their wives and children, and she remembers their names. They can kiss her. There is no illusion that they are leaving their wives, and none that she wants them to. She simply empowers them to feel younger, more looked up to, more clever, than they are.
• What draws a powerful man to pay for a women outside of marriage? It’s not the sex.
• By paying money for the excuse of sex, they don’t have to say: I am lonely. I am fearful. I am growing older. I am not loved. My wife is bored with me. I can’t talk to my children. I’m worried about my job, which means nothing to me. Above all, they are saying: Pretend you like me.

• Chelsea is played by Sasha Grey. She is 21. Since 2006, according to IMDb, she’s made 161 porn films, of which only the first title can be quoted here: “Sasha Grey Superslut.” No, here’s another, which makes me smile: “My First Porn #7.” I haven’t seen any of them, but now I would like to see one, watching very carefully, to see if she suggests more than one level.

   

  Grey wasn’t hired because of her willingness to have sex onscreen; there’s no explicit sex in the movie and only fleeting nudity. I suspect Soderbergh cast her because of her mercenary approach to sex — and her acting talent, which may not be ready for Steppenwolf but is right for this film. She owns her own agency and Web site, manages other actresses, has a disconnect between herself and what she does for a living. So does Chelsea.
• The film is intent on her face. It often looks over the shoulder of her clients. She projects precise amounts of interest and curiosity, but conceals real feelings. It is a transaction, and she is holding up her end. Notice the very small nods and shakes of her head. Observe her word choices as she sidesteps questions without refusing to answer them. When her roommate/boyfriend insists on knowing the name of one of her clients, she is adroit in her reply.
• Once she allows her mask to slip: a surprising moment when she reveals what she may feel. Grey perfectly conveys both her hope and her disappointment, keeping both within boundaries. You wonder how a person could look another in the eye and conceal everything about themselves. But the financial traders who are her clients do it every day. Their business is not money, but making their clients feel better about themselves.

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• It’s a depression!
• Everybody’s out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel’s work, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there’s nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there’s no end to it.
• We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV’s while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that’s the way it’s supposed to be. We know things are bad - worse than bad. They’re crazy!
• It’s like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don’t go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, ‘Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won’t say anything. Just leave us alone.’ Well, I’m not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad!
• I don’t want you to protest. I don’t want you to riot - I don’t want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn’t know what to tell you to write.
• You’ve got to say, ‘I’m a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!’

• I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell,

   

  “I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!”
• From the 1976 movie Network

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• Edward George Ruddy was the Chairman of the Board of the Union Broadcasting Systems, and he died at eleven o’clock this morning of a heart condition, and woe is us! We’re in a lot of trouble!
• So. A rich little man with white hair died. What has that got to do with the price of rice, right? And *why* is that woe to us? Because you people, and sixty-two million other Americans, are listening to me right now.
• Because less than three percent of you people read books!
• Because less than fifteen percent of you read newspapers!
• Because the only truth you know is what you get over this tube.
• Right now, there is a whole, an entire generation that never knew anything that didn’t come out of this tube!
• This tube is the Gospel, the ultimate revelation.
• So if you want the truth… Go to God! Go to your gurus! Go to yourselves! Because that’s the only place you’re ever going to find any real truth.
• You’re beginning to believe the illusions we’re spinning here, you’re beginning to believe that the tube is reality and your own lives are unreal. You do. Why, whatever the tube tells you: you dress like the tube, you eat like the tube, you raise your children like the tube, you even think like the tube. This is mass madness, you maniacs. In God’s name, you people are the real thing,
• “WE” are the illusion.
• …and that’s why woe is us that Edward George Ruddy died. Because this company is now in the hands of CCA, the Communications Corporation of America; there’s a new chairman of the board, a man called Frank Hackett, sitting in Mr. Ruddy’s office on the twentieth floor. And when the 12th largest company in the world controls the most awesome goddamn propaganda force in the whole godless world, who knows what shit will be peddled for truth on this network?
• P.S. For those who haven’t seen Network, while the quotes may seem clear enough without requiring the context of the plot, it actually has a different and much more malicious implication in the movies.
• For the full conversation, check the Tumblr link: http://hikkikomori.tumblr.com/post/157335794#disqus_thread
• I'm not your everyday 20+ year old person but the thing that captured my attention despite not seeing this in it's heyday was how similar this was to today but "it was worse" -- but then again, I'm the guy who shed a tear for this scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waesMWjaqnU because I realized the likes of Fox News and CNN aren't as pop knowledge tells us as composed of bottom-of-the-barrel reporting but really the evolved, better packaged versions of these kinds of shows so we're not even among the 5 monkeys in a cage but are the devolved descendants of said 5 monkeys and ever since then, these kinds of themes just hit a strong point with me.

12 more annotations...

• This is just a re-blogging of the same post I made in DC.

  Source: http://www.donationcoder.com/Forums/bb/index.php?topic=20106.0
• At first, I didn't post this because I felt the content I wrote (especially without any answers), was insufficient and unrelated to Hikkikomoris.
• Here's what I wrote for people who don't want to click the link: (You'll still need to go there though because you won't see the replies made to the topic here. I'll try updating and adding any notable replies though but I won't guarantee that I will remember to keep this topic updated.)
• After reading this thread, it makes me wonder whether short attention spans really exist -- to the point that you can blame it on short attention spans.
• What really fuelled my doubt was the fact that if people really had short attention spans, then no one or almost everyone would be a lurker in the internet.
• if people really had short attention spans, most of them won't often bother with creating noise to disrupt the signal ratio by throwing insults or even "detailed-lite" advises at a person who writes something long.
• There should just be on average people who act like editors and jot down what you should change and improve with your post (specifically rather than generally saying your posts are vague and long) and then there should be people who just flat out ignores a post.
• Even if what it is justifying is the fact that you can read an entire set of 140 char. of different topics as opposed to 1 whole article on one topic of the same length.
• That last sentence got to me.
• It seems that in reality, you can't really write for short attention span people because they simply don't exist. Instead, what we have is a consumer attention span people who ignore things that don't benefit them and join things that do.
• doesn't it seem weird that a person can read a long useful Amazon interview because it's the one that gets voted the most even in 1 star ratings but after 1 review, we can often get short attention span syndrome and not check an even shorter review if we're satisfied by that review?

• This Amazon review provides a much shorter and direct issue as to why I'm skeptical:

  Source: http://www.amazon.com/rev...pr_viewpnt#R1TY559HFLITPR
• The Web demands your writing deliver "joltage".
• If it is, doesn't it further prove that attention span doesn't exist at all? That when someone ignores the content of your post, it is not because they have some innate clock within their attention spans but that often times, your article, your product and your program just doesn't jolt those people enough?
• Beware old-style marketers who see the Web as another opportunity to pump a message at a commercial audience.
• A very few good Web marketers, on the other hand, already understand that the message of a commercial Web site must rely on a more subtle link with a brand's values.
• doesn't the bolded part imply that the key factor is in manipulating people and not in people manipulating themselves (even when they claim to be manipulating themselves)?
• ...and this is where I am lost again. It seems like a "magic card trick" term.

  You only agree with the idea that it is a culture of impatience after the answer has been given to you.

  Yet, when I was reading that paragraph, the thing that strikes me was impatience was the last thing I would attribute it to. Instead I would say the web is a culture of gullibity and I'm not just thinking of scams and such.
• I think what I'm getting at (I'm not really sure) is the idea that because all of these qualities attributed to short attention span have some truth in them, that even smart people on the web can get lazy at verifying anything.
• If this is true, then wouldn't the reality simply be that the problem with communicating with all kinds of people on the internet (including short attention span people) stems from us just not maximizing the manipulation of people...or the manipulation of joltage to reel in our culture of gullibility?
• Of course, this is an evil perception and some well-meaning person who put alot of passion to their products may 100% disagree that it is what they're doing but that's why I'm asking.

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• “Not as bad as you think!”

   

  “Doesn’t suck all that much!”

   

  “I enjoyed the sub-par picture!”

   

  “The most barely adequate release I’ve seen in a long time!”

• Full post:

   

  What I find disconcerting about your post and others here, is the constant use of phrases like:

   

  “Not as bad as you say”.

   

  I think your credibility goes out the window because you reveal yourself as someone who thinks “not that bad” is “good enough”.

   

  I’d like to see an advertising campaign built on such low expectations.

   

  “Not as bad as you think!”

   

  “Doesn’t suck all that much!”

   

  “I enjoyed the sub-par picture!”

   

  “The most barely adequate release I’ve seen in a long time!”

• From the notable comments in a topic asking: “what do your family or people that live with you think about the way you live? did they do something about it like breaking your computer or stuff like that?”

   

   

  http://anonarchive.hikiculture.com/contentpane.php?thread=366

• I’ve known a couple of people who’ve been through that. That could fuck anyone up. Do they have reasons for this which make any kind of sense? Do they realize they’re mortal, and at some point, you’ll have to be on your own?

   

  Where I’m at (US), homeschooled has come to mean “I’m extremely religious and believe schools will pollute my child’s brain with ideas with which I disagree.” Was the case with you?
• dont rip on homeschooling. whats wrong with someone teaching their kids the bible and good morals and real skills. u.s. schools are srsly bad. no one learns anything they are just indoctronation compounds for sheeple. i would homeschool if i was a parent.

• I wasn’t intending to criticize homeschooling in general. Some of the most articulate teens I’ve met have been homeschooled.

   

  Then again, I’ve also met some individuals who were homeschooled and had parents which actively discouraged their children from learning knowledge essential to surviving in the world because the parents felt these abilities were at odds with their faith.

   

  It’s also quite possible »4917’s parents homeschooled for completely different reasons.
• Well, in my case, there are a number of contributing factors to my isolation - the biggest of which is my overprotective and overbearing mother.
• She seems convinced that if I step outside, I’ll be killed by gangsters or kidnapped my paedophiles (bear in mind that we live in a very small, quiet town nestled in a valley, and that I’m an 18 year old guy). However, I still try my hardest not to give up and continue to help myself in preparation for the day that I might be allowed to leave home.
• I’m already doing all that I can to ensure that I am ready for that time - and spend vast amounts of my time learning and studying, in the hopes that acceptance to a good university might change my parents’ opinions (at the moment, my mother is refusing to listen to me talk about going to university - she wants me to stay at home).
• Needless to say, living in such an environment makes it hard to keep real, tangible friends. Back in January, I started talking a lot to a girl at school, and we really got on well. We arranged to meet outside of school one day in the town - but when I told my mother that I was going to go outside in order to meet up with a friend, she threw a tantrum and refused to let me go. As such, I’ve never been able to go to parties or hang out like a normal teenager with other teenagers.
• I don’t really have much to add except for being frustrated that there are still people who sadly believe that “welfare can do no wrong” based on Anon #4915’s reply to #1’s comments:
• “They give him money and food. Exactly.”
• Then again, it could just be him knowing who #1 really was.

• As far as homeschooling, I’ve always been of the opinion that it was only better because traditional schools were that much worse. (This goes beyond what #4 said about U.S. schools) That’s probably why I phrased the question that way.

   

  It isn’t like most schools aren’t fostering isolation either. One just has more physical space while the other has more mental space.

   

  Still, space is still space. If you perceive it as a prison, both are still prison. Perceive it as a workplace and both are workplace. Perceive it as luxury than either one is luxury…

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• (According to Wikipedia)
• Taijin kyofusho is a Japanese culture-specific syndrome. The term taijin kyofusho literally means the disorder (sho) of fear (kyofu) of interpersonal relations (taijin). Dr. Shoma Morita described the condition as vicious cycle of self examination and reproach which can occur in people of hypochondriacal temperament.
• In the West, taijin kyofusho is usually described as a form of social anxiety (social phobia), with the sufferer dreading and avoiding social contact. However, instead of a fear of embarrassing themselves or being harshly judged by others because of their social ineptness (as in cases in the Western world), sufferers of taijin kyofusho report a fear of offending or harming other people. The focus is thus on avoiding harm to others rather than to oneself.

• In the official Japanese diagnostic system, taijin kyofusho is subdivided into the following categories:

   

  * Sekimen-kyofu, the phobia of blushing (English term: ereuthophobia)
  * Shubo-kyofu, the phobia of a deformed body, similar to Body dysmorphic disorder
  * Jikoshisen-kyofu, the phobia of eye contact
  * Jikoshu-kyofu, the phobia of having foul body odor (English term: osmophobia, bromidrosiphobia)

• Since it is not prevalent in American culture, taijin kyofusho is not detailed in the DSM IV. This is under debate, however, as symptoms indicative of taijin kyofusho are sometimes found in patients in the United States.

   

   
• Courteosy of Desuu’s twitter: http://twitter.com/desuuuu

• Yay!!! Finally a new word for Wapanese people. Maybe that’ll get rid of most of the bandwagon hikkis.

   

  …just kidding.

   
• I did have some experience as a Jikoshisen-kyofu although this was when I was a NEET and not a Hikkikomori.

• I think it was Jikoshisen-kyofu because as a person who grew up shy and could be considered anti-social and then getting to a certain point where you did become more social, the difference in eye contact is mind boggling to yourself.

   
• What I mean by this is that you can go from just not realizing your avoiding eye contact to literally taking an effort to make eye contact and seeing the value of it.
• This is not what I mean by possibly experiencing Jikoshisen-kyofu though. Rather it is after this experience and then choosing to create a Tatemae of anti-socialism that you actually can start mimicking this effect. In a way, it’s still like avoiding eye contact except the thought that penetrates through the mind isn’t one of shyness but rather kind of a mix of “you’ll just be disappointed if you were to become my friend” to “I’d rather not involve you with my issues.”
• Of course since the wikipedia article didn’t expand on it further, I’m not really sure it actually does fit with what I’m talking about. I’m just sharing my personal experiences as an attempt to expand on what I believe are the possible differences.
• In particular for me, one of the unique things I was doing during such events was that… as much as I would avoid eye contact, I would also practice intense eye contact. Never on the same person though. However that was a common “out of the blue” practice I used to do that seems unique to that part of my life.
• Also ironically enough, unlike Social Anxiety Disorder, I can’t really see it as something Hikkikomoris won’t do. (Unlike my category for Anxiety based Hikkikomoris)
• Maybe because the experience was much closer to what led me to become a Hikkikomori although my rationalization is simply that Taijin Kyofusho sounds more like an act decided upon inner contemplation while socially anxious people seem to feel like their decisions are much more outside of their control or requiring any thought by them other than “they don’t want it.”
• Of course this is just a gross over-simplification of what socially anxious people truly feel but it is this distinct differences that makes me rationalize this way.

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• This is actually nothing new but I’m posting this anyway to highlight the problem.
• While finally deciding to re-register to Hiki-Culture, I was met with these two questions:
• Will you be sure to create AT LEAST one post/thread within a week of completing this registration form to prevent your HikiCulture account from getting deleted?: *
• Please be honest when answering this. If you select ‘No’, staff will delete your account.
• After posting your intial mandatory first post within a week of joining up to this site, will you be sure to create one post or thread per month and log in AT LEAST once a month to prevent your HikiCulture account from getting deleted?: *
• Please be honest when answering this. If you select ‘No’, staff will delete your account.
• Of course, I knew this because my account was purged due to inactivity. I didn’t know the exact timeline though because as far as I can remember, the questions were new.
• I guess there’s something about seeing the numbers in perspective but I just can’t help but think of the comparison of posting once a month vs. a general private torrent site without a strict rule.
• Sites that create this rule just seem so… anti-Hikkikomori.
• Compare this with your average private torrent ratio rule and despite a longer headstart to get the right ratio so that you can comfortably leave your account alone, I would say a good estimate for causing your account to get deleted is leaving it for 6 months.
• Even then you can say there’s a much more valid reason for the deadline and that 6 months is enough even for the most avid of lurkers to post in a forum (without feeling forced)
• “A month” though…
• That’s the sad thing separating English Hikkimori communities. There’s just no “moderate” community right now.
• Of course I’m not saying don’t join either forums especially since I’m going to join anyway and I don’t know of any other place outside of the three boards. However consider this a warning or even an advise saying “don’t bother” if you’re new to forums and thought to work it through.

• For those looking for the official reason by the admin, here is the link:

  http://hikiculture.prophpbb.com/topic7.html
• "I actually took away the ability for people to edit their posts since problems can arise when too many people edit their posts."

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