Camillenapierbernstein's List: Wiki Discussions

• we experience in our everyday lives

  • If the dilemmas are what we face in daily life, do you think his example (hiking in mts) was still effective?
• It seems we have two undeniable purposes in life, naturally speaking; to survive, and to ensure the continuation of our brothers and sisters as a species

  • Seems evolution would allow for altruism, because, selfishly, helping others helps us. Here's a fascinating article on inherent altruism in, among other creatures, chimps: http://primatediaries.blogspot.com/2007/08/sacrifice-of-admetus.html
• Most people are raised with similar values when it comes to helping others. Media, folklore, and history all show that it is always the duty of the strong and able bodied to help out the weak and distraught. However, there is also the innate “animal instinct” that prevents someone from putting all their effort into helping another person.
• Those were all gestures of kindness, but as McCoy pointed out, nobody was willing to go beyond their initial deed.
• Rather than an innate sense to help others, it’s an innate sense to appear as though you want to help others.

  • Do you think the situation would have been different if the people involved, instead of leaving each other for separate countries, would have had to live near each other, knowing how little each/all did?

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• people will sacrifice themselves to help others, but only to a certain extent

  • to what extent?
• To make ethical decisions a person needs

  • I might even add that morals/ethics don't even matter UNLESS one holds to them in difficult times -- otherwise, they aren't true morals until they are tested. Once I had a student plagiarize and then tell me "but that's not really what I believe in" -- my reply was, "Actually, it is what you believe in. You acted that way when you were tested. When you are not tested, your beliefs are just theories."
• to stick to what they believe in, even during stressful times.
• Many people will try and justify their immoral decisions by saying that they had no other choice, or that they really wanted to, but something prevented them from doing so.

  • We humans are quite skilled at rationalizing our behavior.
• Another piece of this quote also catches my attention is that he uses the word “everyone” instead of just I.
• This relates directly to his use of the group as a whole because he felt that if no other person did more than him to save the man, then his conscience should stay scotch-free.

  • Very interesting point, Pat -- we humans, unfortunately try to excuse our behavior because we "were just doing what everyone else was doing" -- see this famous case of "bystander effect": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
• my dad tells me that whatever my excuse is will never change the end result unless I take action for that cause.

  • Your dad sounds like a wise man.
• Also, as Brianna points out, the hikers are under the added pressures of an extreme climate. All of these compounded forces show that ethical decisions are never quite concrete
• The sandhu story can be applied to limitless scenarios. In particular, I was wondering if this passage made you rethink the way the government is run
• Finding the answer to this question tricky at best,

  • I like that this reading gave you more questions than answers, Sarah. Sitting with these questions is often better than finding a quick solution/opinion.
• Many of us have never been faced with such an ethical ultimatum, making McCoy’s experiences harder to relate to. However, McCoy states that “real moral dilemmas are ambiguous, and many of us hike right through them, unaware that they exist” (McCoy 106).

  • Can you think of an example that we to which we CAN relate?
• In other words, I think that it is easier to make the ethical decision if you have the support and guidance of a group of individuals with whom you share a strong connection. Assuming that the latter is true, how could team-building or “bonding” activities create a more positive classroom or work environment, sports team, and/or community?

  • I've often thought a good practice for the first two weeks of a class -- no matter the topic -- would be some real-life, challenging situations like those exercises.
• do not always act as they say they should

  • See my comment above to Brianna re the plagiarist. Someone once told me, "Words are crap; actions are God." Seems about right.
• may not follow his or her own

  • How can we strengthen our own resolve -- or raise individuals in a society to have the strength -- to LIVE our ethics.
    
    Action from principle, the perception and the performance of right, changes things and relations; it is essentially revolutionary, and does not consist wholly with anything which was. It not only divides States and churches, it divides families; ay, it divides the individual, separating the diabolical in him from the divine.
    
    Henry David Thoreau, "Resistance to Civil Government"
• beliefs without the support of a group or system of guidelines in place at the time of their decision
• The men are in the middle of the wilderness.

  • Great point -- and what a symbol! Does removal from society change one's beliefs developed IN that society?
• If Stephan returned without commenting on the state of the sadhu, McCoy would never have felt the need to justify what he and the others had done to attempt to help the man because, from what he could tell, nothing was wrong. It is important to realize that we need to consider future implications of the decisions made in dillemas while we attempt to try to do the right thing.
• the situation we’re in may prevent us from following this path.

  • Or we may ALLOW the situation to prevent us. It's important to decide.
• herefore, we do justify our decisions after the fact, despite knowing that the decision may not have been the right one. This false justification can be reversed, however, if we develop a standard ethic by which to make decisions and to know what is right.
• n response to Sarah F.’s last question, team-building activities which put members under stress could allow them to discuss their views on the dilemma at hand, in a setting where they have the opportunity to take a step back and view their options. By knowing how everyone in the group handles stress, a strong decision can be quickly when the group is faced with a real dilemma.

  • Let's find some time to research and do these as a class!

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• A8 Week 1B

  • Highlights w/o comments are acknowledgement of good pts.
• Two that are seemingly thematic due to the frequency in which they’re mentioned are solitude and spirituality.
• Josie further emphasizes her wanting of such in saying that she will not leave her hospital room unless forced by authorities. Josie explains that the faculty attempting to “better her health” wishes for her to venture outside of the blank room she is so often engulfed by. Josie quickly dismisses even the thought of such in saying, “I won’t, of course”

  • There seems to be an interesting irony here too, Ally. Josie wants privacy and freedom to make her "lifestyle choices," but I wonder if the hospital, in some way, might afford her the most solitude.
• Here, in seeing past her preface of frustrations with her keeper, it is evident that she yearns for much more – to find something more meaningful than just skin and bone. Josie mentions that the state in which she has come closest to this connection between body and spirit is when she is at her thinnest, as it enables her to experience pure thought.

  • Excellent connections! Yes, she certainly has transcendental designs. It's unfortunate she cannot find an activity that would serve the same purpose -- dance, perhaps?
• a bit weak-willed

  • Is she weak-willed, or is her body's atavistic craving for nutrition overcoming her mental illness?
• organization

  • perhaps it is only through obsessive planning that she can feel she has some control over a disorder that is, paradoxically, about having no control.
• Obviously she is tremendously self conscious of her own body and how she looks. And she seems to judge others around her. She calls the attendant “Squeaky” and criticizes others’ eating habits saying “they say I’m sick, but what about them, all of them, who think nothing of chewing on a carcass, sinking their teeth into muscle and gristle and blood?

  • See my comment to Marinna in another post about the connection between shame and pride w/ anorexia.
• everything she thinks makes so much sense to her, so she does not have to explain to the reader what she believes, because to her that is the right mindset to have

  • you're right that Shute was accurate in revealing values indirectly. Few people repeat to themselves, "This is what I believe, this is what I beleive..."
• I do not understand why Josie places so much emphasis on the appearance of the body when she also thinks of it as being so dispensable

  • Perhaps she needs to reinforce a revulsion to maintain the control that her own body rebels against?
• help her

  • of course not -- she doesn't want to be helped.
• Mar 21, 2011 5:25 am

  • grade reflects late post.
• her values which seem buried under all her bare essentials life style

  • What are these buried values?
• Eating is the enemy of her perfection, a sin to holiness of anorexia

  • nice phrasing

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• A4 Week 1A

  • Sticky notes are not necessarily bad either!

  • Highlights w/o sticky notes are simply acknowledgements of good pts.
• from my interpretation, that was not its intended purpose at all.

  • It would be interesting to read the rest of Shute's work. I did a little research and this story is only one of a collection.
• A person who has never had an eating disorder might have a reaction of sadness and misunderstanding as to how someone could have such a distorted view of what is "pure" and beautiful. On the other hand, a person affected with a less severe case of Josie's disorder, who recognizes that they need help, might see this story as more of a push to get better.
• It's this imbalance and frame of mind that partly qualifies anorexia and bulimia as "disorders."
• might rationalize obvious signs of illness--light-headedness, irregular menstruation, dulled reflexes, obsessive compulsive eating, general body condition--in the same ways as Josie. She can see seen as "strong" for resisting the temptation of food, but in reality, her assertions that everything happening to her body is by choice are just rationalizations for what she cannot control.

  • Terrific understanding of the complexities of understanding and dealing with these disorders.
• Again, this message could go either way
• keeping strong as it shows what an eating disorder can cause. You become hospitalized and are on watch with no privacy
• I feel the message of the story is this is how a person with an eating disorder thinks. This is what goes through their mind and these are their motives.
• throwing up, not eating, and the description of her body reminds me why eating disorders are so harmful and are not the answer.
• Why is our society and generation so inspired of people who are skin and bones?

  • Given your interest in pschology, you might find it worthwhile to explore the effect of media on self-image. How are we all affected in different ways? How are men affected?
• However, an outsider reading the story will have their jaw drop

  • Are you saying Shute simply wanted to shock non-anorexics?
• isease that weakens the body because the person refuses it the privilege of nutrition. The body slowly deteriorates, causing the anorexic to lose strength, not gain it.
• she cowers behind a curtain

  • Cower is an apt word here because shame is often a factor in this complicated disorder. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=anorexia and shame&itool=QuerySuggestion
• scary

  • Even if you have an emotional response, limit your use of words like "insane" or "scary" or other loaded words that get in the way of your otherwise thoughtful posts.
• They are dolled-up and air-brushed.

  • My guess is you've seen this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U
• though viewed by “pro-Ana” entities to be a lifestyle or choice rather than a disease, is a state in which one becomes so fragile, so delicate, that many suffering from it must be admitted to a hospital.
• she draws a picture for the reader suggesting that she can eat, but her strength comes from choosing to not eat.
• neither the anorexics nor the average reader is interpreting this story incorrectly. The mind of an anorexic is different from the mind of someone who is not death defyingly thin
• The author clearly intended this story to be an opening into the mind of a person suffering from anorexia, and essentially to show how sick and twisted their minds become towards food and body image.

  • As I said in Bianca's post, I wonder about Shute's background and the other stories in the collection from which this came.
• Do all anorexics have this hatred towards people who don’t starve themselves?

  • Interesting thought: it reminds me of fundamentalists (in any realm) who must make enemies out of people who think/live differently.
• jealousy

  • there's probably a much more precise term for it.
• She has virtually taught herself to averse her pleasant thoughts about food and associate them with repulsive thoughts.

  • She is actually practicing a form of cognitive behavioral therapy on herself. The exercises are types therapists use to promote positive change or quit smoking -- and the ideas behind such therapy (i.e. that our thoughts cause problems for us so they must be changed) are the same.
• Mar 21, 2011 9:44 pm

  • post was late; grade reflects it
• Josie is clearly unhappy with the way she looks.
• positive emotion

  • What would satisfy her -- a certain number or a negation of existence?

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• She seems to never be satisfied with how thin she is
• She seems to never be satisfied with how thin she is
• When Josie wakes up in the morning and does her "inventory," she shows the things that she values in her own body shape. She lives by the hope that one day she "will be thin enough. Just the bones, no disfiguring flesh, just the pure clear shape of me. Bones"
• She seems to never be satisfied with how thin she is
• shake this image

  • Is the image she has for herself the same AS the cover, even though she is clearly not achieving it? Is there some sort of dysmorphia that does not allow her to see the results of the dieting does NOT create the same image?
• opposite of her washed-out veiny skin
• For Josie, anorexia is not solely a way to lose weight, be thin, or be in shape; it is a condition about power and control. Self control is a hard skill to master for many, but Josie exerts too much control

  • Great point. Anorexia is really about control whose focus becomes the diet.
• methodical

  • How does the methodical nature of her "ritual" help her feel she has control?

  • good word
• Josie plays unconventional and dangerous brain games to test and strengthen her mind, but they do not seem detrimental; to Josie it is just a cleansing, another challenge to take.

  • Excellent linking of how she tests herself. In an objective way, we might see her control as admirable. Unfortunately, in practice, the original mastery of control becomes lack of control.
• She is belying her original stance but unintentionally
• Her excessive self control ultimately makes her lose control of the what she could control.

  • might we find some lesson from this idea of control, even if we are not anorexic?
• she scoffs at those who can't reach this "pure" state.

  • One must always be concerned about the motivations/values of someone who cannot only appreciate their own strengths but must ALSO criticize other's lack of it. Don'tcha think?
• even though she seems to be content with how she is physically, she is still not satisfied.

              [delete]

  • Where does her approval/disapproval of her body become beside the point (or not even apparent)? Ultimately, the outcome is not what she is seeking -- she can clearly see that she is NOT what she sees on the magazine cover. When anorexia takes over, the goal is the control, not the ultimate weight really. Think about it: even if dysfunctionally, anorexics demonstrate a iron-strength mindfulness -- they are present each moment. Not advocating such "presence" but it does seem to suggest something more than body image is working here.

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• almost convinces you to be on her side with her ways

  • How so?
• I think that the message of this story is about seeing both sides of a sickness.

  • Interesting point: it's important to remember people don't PURPOSELY do things they know for SURE are bad for them (against their ultimate happiness). Instead, the human mind creates way of rationalizing or making true/correct their actions.
• then how can they be a part of society.

  • Josie might claim that her decisions affect only her (which we know isn't true), but the same claim is sometimes made for "victimless crimes": doing drugs should not be illegal, but causing injuring under the influence should be. I am not trying to argue this theory, just present it.
• reflects

  • ?
• o be like that is horrible

  • The idea may evoke a strong emotional reaction, but dig deeper in analysis beyond your initial response.
• but she is too far in to change how she acts.

  • What do you mean by "too far in"?
• may be starting to cry for help

  • What lines make you come to this conclusion? Citing evidence is important.
• when anorexia kills so many people every year

  • How many? Your argument would be stronger if you'd looked up that piece of info. Precision!
• uses an oddly scientific approach
• I think both parties are misreading the story because of different view points

  • The question we have to ask is whether one viewpoint is more valid? If anorexia is a disease/mental illness, does that mean a victim of it cannot make rational claims about the condition?

  • Certainly.

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