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IE aims to embrace the web again | Technology | The Guardian
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I asked Hachamovitch, who has led the Explorer team since 2003, why it has taken Microsoft so long to address these deficiencies. "It comes down to what we were doing with our time," he said. "Between 2001 and 2003 we were building what you experience now as Windows Presentation Foundation and Silverlight."
These technologies display not HTML, the language of web pages, but XAML, Microsoft's proprietary code for creating rich visual content.
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It sounds good, but Hachamovitch's warmth begins to fade when I broach the vexed subject of browser scripting. The context is important. Hachamovitch had already stated that Microsoft spent three years neglecting IE for the sake of a more proprietary technology, which is now appearing on the web as a browser plug-in called Silverlight. This is similar in some ways to Adobe's Flash, and supports rich multimedia effects within web pages, as well as the ability to run applications written in Microsoft's .NET Framework.
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Siding with HTML over XHTML, My Decision to Switch - Monday By Noon
A CMS expert argues for HTML over XHTML, explaining his reasons for switching. Excellent read! He nails the basics. for similar reasons, we moved from ODF to ePUB and then to CDf and finally to the advanced WebKit document model, where wikiWORD will make it's stand.
- Response to marbux comments. - garyedwards on 2008-07-09
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# See also my comment on the same web page that explains why HTML 5 is NOT it for document exchange between web editing applications. . - comment by marbux
# Response to marbux supporting the WebKit layout/document model.
Marbux argues that HTML5 is not interoperable, and CSS2 near useless. HTML5 fails regarding the the interop web appplications need. I respond by arguing that the only way to look at web applications is to consider that the browser layout engine is the web application layout engine! Web applications are actually written to the browser layout/document model, OR, to take advantage of browser plug-in capabilities.
The interoperability marbux seeks is tied directly to the browser layout engine. In this context, the web format is simply a reflection of that layout engine. If there's an interop problem, it comes from browser madness differentials. The good news is that there are all kinds of efforts to close the browser gap: including WHATWG - HTML5, CSS3, W3C DOM, JavaScript Libraries, Google GWT (Java to JavaScript), Yahoo GUI, and the my favorite; WebKit.
The bad news is that the clock is ticking. Microsoft has pulled the trigger and the great migration of MSOffice client/server systems to the MS WebSTack-Mesh architecture has begun. Key to this transition are the WPF-.NET proprietary formats, protocols and interfaces such as XAML, Silverlight, LINQ, and Smart Tags. New business processes are being written, and old legacy desktop bound processes are being transitioned to this emerging platform.
The fight for the Open Web is on, with Microsoft threatening to transtion their entire business desktop monopoly to a Web platform they own. The Web is going to be broken. There is no way of stopping Microsoft at this point. What we can do though is focus on Open Web solutions that are worthy alternatives to Microsoft's proprietary push. For me, this means the WebKit layout/document model supported by Apple, Adobe and Google.
~ge~ - garyedwards on 2008-07-10
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Publishing content on the Web is in no way limited to professional developers or designers, much of the reason the net is so active is because anyone can make a website. Sure, we (as knowledgeable professionals or hobbyists) all hope to make the Web a better place by doing our part in publishing documents with semantically rich, valid markup, but the reality is that those documents are rare. It’s important to keep in mind the true nature of the Internet; an open platform for information sharing.
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XHTML2 has some very good ideas that I hope can become part of the web. However, it’s unrealistic to think that all web authors will switch to an XML-based syntax which demands that browsers stop processing the document on the first error. XML’s draconian policy was an attempt to clean up the web. This was done around 1996 when lots of invalid content entered the web. CSS took a different approach: instead of demanding that content isn’t processed, we defined rules for how to handle the undefined. It’s called “forward-compatible parsing” and means we can add new constructs without breaking the old.
So, I don’t think XHTML is a realistic option for the masses. HTML 5 is it.
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Understanding HTML, XML and XHTML | Webkit Surfin’ Safari
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Close your
<script>and<canvas>tags!The relationships among HTML, XML and XHTML are an area of considerable confusion on the web. We often see questions on the
webkit-devmailing list where people wonder why their seemingly XHTML documents result in HTML output. Or we’re asked why an XML construct like<b />doesn’t actually close the bold tag.
Beware of XHTML
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I believe that XHTML has many good potential applications, and I hope it continues to thrive as a standard. This is precisely why I have written this article. The state of XHTML on the Web today is more broken than the state of HTML, and most people don't realize because the major browsers are using classic HTML parsers that hide the problems. Even among the few sites that know how to trigger the XML parser, the authors tend to overlook some important issues. If you really hope for the XHTML standard to succeed, you should read this article carefully.
HTML5, XHTML2, and the Future of the Web : Digital Web Magazine
great article walking through the history of HTML, XHTML, and browsers. Summary is that HTML5 is the future. Good thinking, great arguments.
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The fact that Internet Explorer doesn’t really support XHTML as XML in any way, and the problems XML can cause when not all tools in the authoring chain are XML tools, means that there has been little incentive for using XML on the web. This is compounded by search engines not indexing XHTML as XML documents; very few XHTML authoring tools for XML; very few CMS or blogging tools supporting XML correctly all the way from input through database to generation; and very few ad suppliers supporting XML.
There is a little incentive if you want to allow MathML, SVG, and other XML applications to be interspersed inline in XHTML documents, but this use of XHTML as XML has found a very limited audience.XHTML2 is XML
And therein lies the biggest problem. On top of all the concerns that web developers have about using XML for serving documents, XHTML2 adds another layer of complexity. It isn’t HTML 4.01 reformulated as XML; it’s a different but similar language, with added, removed, or modified semantics for many elements, and added or changed element vocabulary for many semantics. In many cases, the changes are steps in the right direction, but at the same time, XHTML2 was not built with web developers in mind. As an example, it doesn’t at all address the deficiencies of HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 in the areas of interactivity, local storage, or script interactions.
ConsortiumInfo.org - Standards to the People! (Updated Twice)
Strange demands from Andy Updegrove: "I call on Ecma to withdraw OOXML from ISO and keep control of it themselves. We need it for legacy documents...."
Why would anyone want Ecma to take back control of MSOffice-OOXML from ISO? The best circumstance would be for OASIS to turn OpenOffice-ODF over to the same ISO JTC-S1, where they can finally begin the difficult (if not impossible) harmonization process. Let me add on other thing; the place for ISO to begin harmonization is "presentation". We desperately need a standardized presentation model useful to MSOffice-OOXML, OpenOffice-ODF, XHTML and HTML. I suggest they start with CSS 3, and work back into ODF - OOXML. But that's just me :)
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I call on Ecma to withdraw OOXML from ISO and keep control of it themselves. We need it for legacy documents.
How To make Web-Clean Documents in AbiWord
Bonus points to Paul!
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HTML Formatting Instructions - Cascading Style Sheets (CSS)
By default, when you save your document as an HTML file, AbiWord places all formatting instructions into one block at the beginning. These formatting instructions use the Cascading Style Sheet language, and are in the <style> tag in the <head> of your document. From here it is easy to move the styles as a whole (copy and paste) into a new document which can then be externally linked or integrated with your web-site's style sheet.
Open Stack: ISO Does The Unthinkable. How ISO approval of MSOffice-OOXML will break the Web
In response to a recent question posted to a rather old OpenStack blog, i posted this summary of my views on ISO approval of MSOffice-OOXML and the impact it will have on the futrue of the open web.
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In August of 2007 we dropped ODF as the da Vinci target conversion format, and moved to the W3C's Compound Document Format (CDF) with an ePUB wrapper.
The reason for this move is that we could not establish a reasonable degree of interoperability with OpenOffice ODF unless Sun supported the five generic eXtensions to ODF needed to hit the high fidelity conversion the da Vinci process is capable of.
Since da Vinci is a clone of the MSOffice OOXML compatibility Kit, we use the same internal conversion process where imbr (in-memory-binary-representation) is converted to another format: imbr <> OOXML or, imbr <> RTF.
While it's entirely compliant to eXtend ODF, without Sun's changes to OpenOffice ODF the application-platform-vendor independent interoperability end users expect would be meaningless.
The problem as we see it is this; it is impossible to do a high fidelity conversion between two application specific XML formats.
It is however quite possible to do a conversion between an application specific format and a generic (application-platform-vendor independent) format.
ECIS Accuses Microsoft of Plotting HTML Hijack | BetaNews Jan 2007
Look at the date on this! A full year has passed and we now can clearly see the importance to Microsoft of ISO approval for MSOffice-OOXML. The MSOffice SDK provides an easy to implement OOXML <> XAML conversion component, pavign the way for billions of complex, business process rich MSOffice documents to be used by IE-8 and the emerging MS Web-Stack. XAML is proprietary and exclusive to the Microsoft Web.
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Vista is not the threat! The threat is that of the MS Web-Stack, at the core of which is the Exchange/SharePoint juggernaut tha tis rapidly replacing Lotus Notes and Apache as the premier server system for eMail, messaging, portal CMS, calendar-scheduling, project management, and collaborative computing.
The MS Web-Stack is able to speak HTML5-CSS2.1 as well as the proprietary XAML-Silverlight-Smart Tags set of WPF technologies designed as alternatives to advancing W3C XHTML, CSS, SVG, XForms, and RDF.
- garyedwards on 2008-04-18 - Great summary quote! At least someone gets it. - garyedwards on 2008-04-18
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An industry coalition that has represented competitors of Microsoft in European markets before the European Commission stepped up its public relations offensive this morning, this time accusing Microsoft of scheming to upset HTML's place in the fabric of the Internet with XAML, an XML-based layout lexicon for network applications.
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What difference does that make? XML is a language for developing domain specific XML languages. Sometimes these domain specific dialects are shared, sometimes they are not. There are ZERO interoperability requirements with XML!!!! XAML is 100% proprietary XML language written exclusively for the MSOffice-OOXML <> MS Web-Stack <> IE-8 use. That it's XML has nothing to do with the interop expected of Opne Web formats.
XAML is proprietary.
- on 2008-04-18
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Is HTML in a Race to the Bottom? A Large-Scale Survey of Open Web Formats
What makes the Internet so extraordinary is the interoperability of web ready data, content, media and the incredible sprawl of web applications servicing the volumes of information. The <i>network of networks</i> has become the information system connecting and converging all information systems. The Web is the universal platform of access, exchange and now, collaborative computing. This survey exammines the key issue of future interoperability; Web Document Formats.
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The "race to the bottom" is a
familiar phenomenon that occurs when multiple standards compete for acceptance.
In this environment, the most lenient standard usually attracts the greatest
support (acceptance, usage, and so on), leading to a competition among
standards to be less stringent. This also tends to drive competing standards
toward the minimum possible level of quality. One key prerequisite for a race
to the bottom is an unregulated market because regulators mandate a minimum
acceptable quality for standards and sanction those who don't
comply.1,2 In examining current HTML standards, we've come to
suspect that a race to the bottom could, in fact, be occurring because so many
competing versions of HTML exist.At this time, some nine different versions of HTML (including its successor,
XHTML) are supported as W3C standards, with the most up-to-date being XHTML
1.1. Although some versions are very old and lack some of the newer versions'
capabilities, others are reasonably contemporaneous. In particular, HTML 4.01
and XHTML 1.0 both have "transitional" and "strict" versions.
Clearly, the W3C's intent is to provide a pathway to move from HTML 4.01 to
XHTML 1.1, and the transitional versions are steps on that path. It also aims
to develop XHTML standards that support device independence (everything from
desktops to cell phones), accessibility, and internationalization. As part of
this effort, HTML 4.01's presentational elements (used to adjust the appearance
of a page for older browsers that don't support style sheets) are eliminated in
XHTML 1.1.Our concern is that Web site designers might decline to follow the newer
versions' more stringent formatting requirements and will instead keep using
transitional versions. To determine if this is likely, we surveyed the top
100,000 most popular Web sites to discover what versions of HTML are in
widespread use. -
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The summary statement glosses over the value of a highly structured portable XML document. A value that goes far beyond the strict separation of content and presentation. The portable document model is the essential means by which information is exchanged over the Web. It is the key to Web interop.
Up till now, Web docuemnts have been very limited. With the advent of XHTML-2, CSS-3, SVG, XForms and CDF (Compound Document Framework for putting these pieces together), the W3C has provisioned the Web with the means of publishing and exchanging highly interactive but very complex docuemnts. The Web documents of the future will be every bit as complex as the publishing industry needs.
The transition of complex and data rich desktop office suite documents to the Web has been non existent up till now. With ISO approval of MSOffice-OOXML, Microsoft is now ready to transition billions of business process rich "office" documents to the Web.This transition is accomplished by a very clever conversion component included in the MSOffice SDK. MS Developers can easily convert OOXML documents to Web ready XAML documents, adn back again, without loss of presentation fidelity, or data. No matter what the complexity!
The problem here is that while MSOffice-OOXML is now an ISO/IEC International Standard, XAML "fixed/flow" is a proprietary format useful only to the IE-8 browser, the MS Web Stack (Exchange, SharePoint, MS SQL, and Windows Server), and the emerging MS Cloud.
Apache, J2EE, Mozilla Firefox, Adobe and Open Source Servers in general will not be able to render these complex, business process rich, office suite documents. MSOffice-OOXML itself is far to complicated and filled with MS application-platform-vendor specific dependencies to be usefully converted to Open Web XHTML-CSS, ePUB or CDF.
XAML itself is only the tip of the iceberg. The Microsoft Web Stack also implements Silverlight, Smart Tags and other WPF - .NET technologies not available as open standards. Silverlight is a proprietary alternative to SVG and Flash technologies. Smart Tags and the LINQ meta search mechanism are alternatives to RDF, RDFa and SPARQL. And of course, XAML "fixed/flow" is a proprietary alternative to advanced XHTML-CSS, CDF, iPAPER, FlashPaper and PDF.
Web formats are important. This survey sadly only begins to scrape the surface of the interoperability problems the future of the Open Web faces. ISO approval of MSOffice-OOXML is going to initiate a great transition of legacy client/server business process systems to a new model of highly efficient, barrier free and cloud ready client/ Web-Stack /server systems.
Hope this helps,
~ge~
- on 2008-04-18
Picasa HTML-CSS Page Layout - Brian - Redfern
Basic layout of highly strucutred HTML - CSS page design
Standards competition and globalization | John Carroll | ZDNet.com
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Microsoft recently released the specification for XAML, an XML-to-object mapping technology that is most closely identified with WPF. They also released a specification for a XAML vocabularly as applied to WPF, Microsoft’s .NET-based user interface technology introduced with .NET 3.0 which serves as the baseline for Silverlight (Silverlight is a subset of WPF).
Some claim that this is Microsoft’s attempt to displace HTML as a standard for the Internet, even going so far as make complaints to the EC about it. For a company aiming to displace HTML, Microsoft certainly provides a lot of support for the technology (ASP.NET, an AJAX library in the form of ATLAS, lots of HTML authoring tools, etc.). WPF, however, was clearly designed to make desktop development more attractive by applying the lessons of web site creation to desktop development (markup languages are great for UI layout). Further, they wanted to make desktop applications more network-aware, a detail that makes possible things like Silverlight, to be sure, but also enables users to run full WPF applications in a web browser (think: applications you can access over the web, but then drop onto your desktop for use while offline).
Does that make desktop application development more competitive with web development (and, hopefully, boost the success of the pure-browser variant of that technology, Silverlight)? Clearly, Microsoft hopes it does. That, however, isn’t such a bad thing.
India Votes Against OOXML | Slashdot discussion
MSOffice SDK OOXML <> XAML converter. It is all about the web!!!!!!
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The real threat to Microsoft has always been HTML. In the Iowa antitrust case there was discovered this interesting 1998 memo [slated.org] from Chairman Bill to the MSOffice development team:
Unbreaking the Web: IE 8 passes ACID 2 Test | John Resig
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IMHO, the key to Microsoft's OOXML strategy can be seen in the recently released MSOffice SDK. The SDK provides a component for the fluid conversion of OOXML to something called fixed/flow. The fixed part of this interesting conjunction is also known as XPS, which is designed as a proprietary alternative to PDF. The flow part is a fascinating and highly proprietary replacement for (X)HTML - CSS.
Reading further through the MSOffice SDK, one can't help but be amazed at the lack of W3C technologies; especially (X)HTML, CSS, XForms and SVG. What we have instead is an entangling cascade of stuff like OOXML, fixed/flow, silverlight, XAML, and WPF. And then there is that recent promise of other high volume API's probably delivered through future Exchange, SharePoint, and MS SQL Server SDK's.
So, at the end of the day, what are we looking at here? IMHO, Microsoft has figured out that the smart thing to do is leverage and extend their existing desktop monopoly into the next generation of cloud computing where the Internet platform rules.
To pull this off, they have a number of problems to overcome; not the least of which is that they need to catch a break on anti trust, and, get OOXML through ISO. And oh yeah, there's that little problem that Windows can't do cloud computing.
The future of XML
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Of course, the most important conversion isn't from OpenDoc to OOXML or vice versa: it's a
down conversion from either OpenDoc or OOXML to XHTML. The HTML exporters in OpenOffice
and Microsoft Office are uniformly atrocious. Look for third-party developers to pick up
the slack. Most important, look for individual corporate developers and webmasters
to begin publishing custom templates for their sites. This will enable regular folks to
write in Microsoft Word as they're accustomed to doing and then upload their musings
straight into the local content-management system. Editing and reviewing tools can be built right in. Because machines generate all the markup (the humans see the GUI interface they're used to), well-formedness will be a freebie. The majority of the Web won't be well-formed by the end of 2008, but a larger percentage will be than today.
HTML Playground, html, css reference by example - Flock
very cool interactive reference for xhtml + css design.
Independent study advises IT planners to go OOXML | All about Microsoft | ZDNet.com
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“ODF represents laudable design and standards work. It’s a clean and useful design, but it’s appropriate mostly for relatively unusual scenarios in which full Microsoft Office file format fidelity isn’t a requirement. Overall, ODF addresses only a subset of what most organizations do with productivity applications today.”
The report continues:
“ODF is insufficient for complex real-world enterprise requirements, and it is indirectly controlled by Sun Microsystems, despite also being an ISO standard. It’s possible that IBM, Novell, and other vendors may be able to put ODF on a more customer-oriented trajectory in the future and more completely integrate it with the W3C content model, but for now ODF should be seen as more of an anti-Microsoft political statement than an objective technology selection.”
Mary Jo takes on the recently released Burton Group Report comparing OOXML and ODF. Peter O'Kelly, one of the Burton Group authors, once famously said, "ODF is a great format if you live in an alternative universe where MSOffice doesn't exist!"
This observation speaks to the core problem facing ODF and those who seek to implement the ODF standard: ODF was not designed for the conversion of MSOffice documents. Nor was ODF designed to work with MSOffice applications.
Another way of saying this is to state that ODF was not designed to be interoperable with MSOffice documents, applications and bound processes. The truth is that ODF was designed for OpenOffice/StarOffice. It is an application specific format.
Both OOXML and ODF do a good job of separating content from presentation (style). The problem is that the presentation - layout layers of both ODF and OOXML remains bound to specific applications producing it. While the content layers are entirely portable and can be exchanged without information loss, the presentation layers can not.
Microsoft makes no bones about the application specific design and purpose of OOXML. It's stated right in the Ecma 376 charter that OOXML was designed to be compatible with MSOffice and the billions of binary documents in MSOffice specific binary formats. The situation however is much more confusing with ODF.
ODF is often promoted as being application, platform and vendor independent. After five years of development though, the OASIS ODF TC has been unable to strip ODF of it's OpenOffice/StarOffice specific aspects. ODF 1.0 - ISO 26300 had three areas that were under specified; meaning these areas were described in syntax only, and lacked the full semantics demanded by interoperable implementations. Only OpenOffice and StarOffice code base applications are able to exchange documents with an acceptable fidelity.
The three under specified areas of ODF are: Lists (numbered), Formulas, and Layout - Presentation (styles).
ODF v 1.2 will deal with the formula problem, but this version is still in committee - perhaps years away from ISO approval. The List model in ODF 1.2 further aggravates the existing interop problems. And the presentation-layout problem is not dealt with at all. Meaning, we can expect the ODF Interop problems to continue far into the future.
There is a solution, but not what people think.
Most observers think that it's possible to harmonize ODF and OOXML. This is wishful thinking. Since both ODF and OOXML are application bound at the presentation layer, the only way to harmonize them would be to harmonize the applications themselves. Meaning; alter how the applications implement basic document structures such as lists, tables, sections, fields and page dynamics so that the implementation models are similar. This would involve serious compromise of what each application provider considers to be innovative feature sets.
Efforts to harmonize at the application layer will not work. The vendors, Sun and Microsoft, are unlikely to compromise on their innovative differentials. And there is no hope of changing the application specific formats unless and until the application providers consent.
The solution that will work is that of relying on converters. While everyone wants MSOffice to implement ODF, this is structurally impossible unless a subset of ODF is designed for this purpose. And the OASIS ODF TC has already rejected six different subset proposals designed for compatibility with MSOffice and the conversion of billions of MS binary documents.
It's also impossible to convert from one application specific format into another without significant information loss. Maybe if Microsoft and Sun were to completely specify the presentation - layout layers this problem could be lessened. But that's unlikely to happen.
So what to do?
Convert to a generic format designed for universal interoperability!
The W3C's CDF was designed for universal interop. It is totally application independent, building on combining basic document structures within the XHTML - CSS - XForms - SVG framework. CSS in particular is an extremely portable presentation layer!
Given that the large application vendors are unlikely to compromise, the W3C's CDF may be the only solution possible. The idea being to convert MSOffice documents (binary and OOXML) to CDF, and, similarly convert OpenOffice/StarOffice ODF documents to that same CDF profile.
At this higher level of Web ready CDF, there is universal interoperability. But the solution does put incredible pressure on the conversion layers.
This approach looks very similar to the SOA model where XML connectors are routinely used to wire together legacy systems. A common XML schema is used as the conversion layer connecting many black box information systems, with each connector having to be written and implemented. From the common schema, the legacy systems can be wired into emerging Web information systems, creating a fairly good information flow. Interoperability between systems might not be perfect (it depends on the quality of the individual converters – connectors), but it is usually far beyond the zero interop of previous generations!
What i'm suggesting is that document interoperability can be achieved following a similar route to that of SOA. The legacy applications can be wired together using an advanced conversion layer connecting the applications to a common XML configuration. The W3C's CDF has the flexibility and reach to capture the richness of our desktop productivity legacy. The SOA approach allows us to continue to leverage that desktop application value without having to rip out and replace. Which is costly and disruptive to existing business processes.
~ge~
- on 2008-01-14
CDI WICD 2.0
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This document defines a generic language-independent processing model
for combining arbitrary document formats.
The Compound Document Framework is language-independent.
While it is clearly meant to serve as the basis for integrating W3C's
family of XML formats within its Interaction Domain (e.g., MathML, SMIL,
SVG, VoiceXML, XForms, XHTML, XSL) with each other, together with CSS and
the DOM; it can also be used to integrate non-W3C formats with W3C formats
or integrate non-W3C formats with other non-W3C formats.
1.1. Conformance
Everying in this specification is normative except for diagrams,
examples, notes and sections marked non-normative.
The key words must, must not,
required, shall, shall not, should, should not, recommended, may and optional in this document are
to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
This specification defines the following classes of products:
- conforming implementation
- A user agent that implements all interfaces described in this
specification and follows all must-, required- and shall-level of critera
in this specification. - conforming document
- A document that follows all must-, required- and shall-level of critera
in this specification that apply to document authors. - conforming authoring tool
- One that produces conforming documents.
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