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ConsortiumInfo.org - ODF vs. OOXML: War of the Words Chapter 5
Tags: massachusetts, oasis, odf, ooxml, updegrove on 2008-01-11 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.consortiuminfo.org
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Unlike screw threads, which are easily implemented with complete fidelity, it is sometimes only feasible to create a standard for software that, in a given case, at best will enable two products to become close to interoperable. After that, tinkering and testing is necessary to accomplish the final "fit." Similarly, the costs to innovation in achieving true "plug and play" interoperability when that result is feasible may be unacceptably high, leading to a decision to create a standard that (like ODF) only locks in a very significant amount of functionality, rather than complete uniformity (as OOXML strives to achieve).Add Sticky Note
- posted by garyedwards on 2008-01-05
This is an odd way of stating the interop problem between ODF and the billions of legacy MSOffice documents? "The costs to innovation in achieving true plug and play interoperability (high fidelity conversion?) when that result is feasible may be unacceptably high......"
OOXML was designed for the high fidelity conversion of those billions of legacy MSOffice documents. ODF was not.
What's interesting here is that Andy is correctly pointing out that the ODF vednors refuse to compromise on the innovative ways OpenOffice differs from MSOffice. The innovations involve the different ways OpenOffice implements basic docuemnt structures such as lists, sections, fields, tables and page dynamics. MSOffic euses an older method of implementation.
When converting legacy MSOffice documents to ODF, the fidelity breaks down wherever these strucutral features are present. The key point here is that these strucutral differentials are exactly related to how OpenOffice and MSOffice differ in their implementation methods. It's an application difference beign expressed at the file format level!!!!!!!!!!!
The ODF vendors refuse to compromise with their application level innovations. The result of this is that billions of MSOffice docuemnts cannot be converted to ODF without significant loss of information.
Which is to say: both ODF and OOXML are application specific formats. Worse, neither ODF or OOXML specify the syntax and semantics of layout!!! They only specify the syntax. Developers must study OpenOffice and MSDOffice to figure out how presentation (layout) is achieved.
This stands in stark contrast to the W3C's Compound Document Format (CDF). CDF provides a very generic, application independent separation of content (XHTML) and presentation (CSS), where the presentation layer is entirely specified. CSS is highly portable because it is completely specified and totally application indepen
Ripped Off by Rob Weir - Again
Tags: cdf, da-vinci, hamlet, ibm, massachusetts, odf, ooxml, opendocument, pdf, pilot, rfi, weir on 2007-12-04 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.robweir.com
- Intriguing? Rob Weir knows full well that the Foundation proposed this exact same feature set as part of the da Vinci Plug-in design for Massachusetts, July of 2006!!!!!!!!!post by garyedwards on 2007-11-22
The Complete Feature list of the da Vinci plug-in for MSOffice that was proposed and signed off on by CIO Louis Gutierrez in early August of 2006 was well known by IBM's representatives who were working hand in hand with us at the time: Rob Weir, Don Harbison and Doug Heintzman.
Louis Gutierrez had asked IBM and Oracle to create a "benefactors Group" to overcome the challenge that Massachusetts ITD did not have a budget. IBM and Oracle selected Google, Sun, Novell, Intel, and Nokia as key benefactors. The group was provided with the complete feature set and roadmap for da Vinci development.
The da Vinci roadmap was the schedule announced by Louis Gutierrez in his mid year report, August 17th, 2006.
The da Vinci plug-in feature set, in order of priority, consisted of:- ODF iX Approval at OASIS
- Plug-in for MS WORD
- Accessibility Interface for all ODF documents in MS Word
- PDF - ODF iX Digital Signature container
- Plug-in for MS Excel
- Interoperability Wizard for OpenOffice
- Plug-in for PowerPoint
- XForms Interface
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An intriguing idea is whether we can have it both ways. Suppose you are in an ODF editor and you have a "Save for archiving..." option that would save your ODF document as normal, but also generate a PDF version of it and store it in the zip archive along with ODF's XML streams. Then digitally sign the archive along with a time stamp to make it tamper-proof. You would need to define some additional access conventions, but you could end up with a single document that could be loaded in an ODF editor (in read-only mode) to allow examination of the details of spreadsheet formulas, etc., as well as loaded in a PDF reader to show exactly how it was formated.
Quible Correction -- garyedwards@...'s comment on "Microsoft: We were railroaded in Massachusetts on ODF" | TalkBack on ZDNet
Tags: ibm, massachusetts, microsoft, odf, railroaded, sun on 2007-12-04 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromtalkback.zdnet.com
- This is part of a series of talkback responses i had made to a ZDNet article, "Microsoft: We were railroaded in Massachusetts on ODF". Andy Updegrove participated in this exchange.post by garyedwards on 2007-07-16
My comment was picked up by the Heise in a FSF Free Software Foundation Europe article, "The Converter Hoax".
~ge~
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Microsoft was invited, and did join the OASIS
Open Office XML File Format TC as a founding
member with observer status. Although the name
of the TC was changed in September of 2004 (at
the request of the EU) to "OpenDocument",
Microsoft remains a member with observer status.
All that need be done to convert their status
from observer to voting member is to notify the
TC Chairman of your intentions, show up for two
consecutive phone conferences, and you are a
voting member. It's that simple.
EU-IDABC ODEF Workshop 2007 in Berlin - Documentation - presentations
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-10-01 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromec.europa.eu
- ODF officially died on February 28, 2007, at the Advanced eGovernment Conference in Berlin. Hellow ODEFpost by garyedwards on 2007-06-05
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IDABC ODEF Workshop 2007 in Berlin
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- compile further input from Member State public administrations on their experiences and strategies on ODEF
- gather industry viewpoints on the initiatives relating to ODEF standardization and information on future standardisation developments
- provide a platform for exchange between stakeholders in public administrations and main industry players
ODEF Strategies: Examples from European Administration
Practical Experiences with the implementation of ODEF
Report on ODEF-Standardisation activities
4 parallel sessions with participants
A panel discussion with stakeholders
As information exchange in and with public administrations is very often bound to documents, editing, archiving and exchange possibilities for documents are crucial for the optimum function of administrations, both in terms of practicality and cost.Initiatives such as the PEGSCO Recommendations on Open Document Formats published by the IDABC Management Committee, demonstrate public administrations preference for "open" document exchange and storage formats that are subject to formal standardisation via international standardisation procedures.The primary objectives of the Berlin event, held at the German Federal Ministry of the Interior (BMI), were to:
The program of the workshop included, among other:
The Microsoft Document Juggernaut: ECMA to Begin Drafting XPS as Alternative Standard to PDF
Tags: davinci, iso, massachusetts, microsoft, odf, officeopenxml, ooxml, opendocument, xml on 2007-07-02 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.betanews.com
- More on Andy UpDegrove's "Game Over for open standards" comment.post by garyedwards on 2007-06-30
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"Be that as it may," Updegrove continues, "perpetuating one monopolistic market position after another seems wholly incompatible with the role of a global standards body, tasked with protecting the interests of all stakeholders. If OOXML, and now Microsoft XML Paper Specification, each sail through ECMA and are then adopted by ISO/IEC JTC1, then it may be time to wonder whether the time has come to declare 'game over' for open standards."
Game Over! Latest Draft of Mass. ETRM Includes OOXML
Tags: davinci, iso, massachusetts, microsoft, odf, officeopenxml, ooxml, opendocument, xml on 2007-07-02 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.consortiuminfo.org
- Game Over? Probably. I've been expecting Massachusetts to publicly revise the ODF mandate to include OOXML ever since Louis Gutierrez resigned in early October of 2006. That was as clear a signal that ODF had failed in Massachusetts as anyone needed.post by garyedwards on 2007-07-02
The only surprise is that it took the new CIO, Beth Pepoli so long to make the announcement that OOXML would be recognized as an officially recognized open XML file format going forward.
Andy UpDegrove of course does his best to downplay the significance of this announcement. But how can this not be the deathnell for ODF?
The failure of ODF in Massachusetts has resulted in a world wide recognition that it is impossible to implement ODF.
This is exactly what happened to ODF mandate legislature in California. The CIO's in California uniformly rejected both ODF legislation and Sun's hapless effort to set up an ODF Pilot Study based on what had happened in Massachusetts. If Mass couldn't implement ODF, than they saw no reason for them to try.
And it does come down to "implementation".
Most people think the implementation of ODF is as easy as downloading OepnOffice and converting your legacy docuemnts to ODF as they are used. Simply fix the artifacts of conversion in process, and never look back. OOo is free. So what's not to like?
Well, the problem is that the world has fifteen plus years of building business processes, line of business integrated applications and other client/server integration on top of the MSOffice application suite. These business processes are bound hard to MSOffice.
So the barrier for OpenOffice and ODF is twofold. Any implementation of ODF must overcome both the binary documents conversion barrier, and, the MSOffice bound business process barrier.
The cost and disruption of a <font
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this new draft includes Microsoft's OOXML formats as an acceptable "open format."
GullFOSS: It's our way or the highway. So what if new cool features = Zero Interop? Download OOo and get over it already!
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-10 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromblogs.sun.com
- Make no mistake about it. Microsoft is absolutely right about three things:post by garyedwards on 2007-06-10
.... Compatibility with existing file formats is not an ODF concern.
.... Sun controls the OASIS ODF TC.
.... Sun makes certain that ODF is bound tightly to the OpenOffice feature set.
Sun's view of interoperability is that of a one way street. Documents can be converted into ODF-OOo/SO, but they are guaranteed to break during any kind of document routing or round tripping.
This is also the reason why the Sun "external" plugin for MSOffice fails. One way conversion simply isn't enough to crack the hold MSOffice has on critical day to day business processes. The only way to that is with a conversion process able to maintain high level fidelity while round tripping.
As the EU IDABC has figured out, the ODF-OOo/SO specification is loaded with interoperability break points. That's why they are turning to ODEF, which can be seen as a version of ODF that is truly application independent and optimized for interoperability.
~ge~ - The chuckleheads at Sun's StarOffice/OpenOffice Hamburg office respond to Florian's comprehensive lis tof suggestions to greatly improve ODF interoperability.post by garyedwards on 2007-06-05
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When such new features that enhance the interoperability require enhancements to the Open Document file format we will propose the necessary changes to the OASIS Open Document TC. This way not only OpenOffice.org but also Open Document benefits from our efforts. Florian Reuter, who now works for Novell, lists some of the changes we have in mind in his blog . So there are a lot of common ideas how we can improve the interoperability between OpenOffice.org and Microsoft Word documents and I hope we can work together with Florian here.
ODF1.2 Interoperability Proposal
Tags: california, compatibility, davinci, interoperability, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odf, officeopenxml, ooxml, opendocument, openxml, plugin, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.oasis-open.org
- Part of the sad but enduring "History of Failed ODF Interoperability Attempts". This particular message is dated November 20th, 2006.post by garyedwards on 2007-06-04
The OpenDocument Foundation was notified a week earlier that the "benefactor" ODF Community group Louis Gutierrez had asked IBM and Oracle to put together in Massachusetts had failed. This was the group Louis formed around the da Vinci plugin and our InfoSet APi.
Florian has been hired by Novell, and his first day on the job he finds out about the IBM - Novell deal with Microsoft. Now he has write the MOOXML plugin for OpenOffice using the MS-CleverAge Translator Project work. So he writes this message to the ODF TC [office] list.
The interoperability enhancements Florian suggests are based on the <interoperability eXtensions> submitted in August to the ODF Metadata SC for consideration.
The first element in this list tha tFlorian chose to tackle related to "Lists". He called it the "LIst Override Proposal". This became the now infamous "List Enhancement Proposal War" that resulted in Sun having OASIS boot out the Foundation.
Such is life in big vendor ODF'dom
~ge~
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- From: "Florian Reuter" <freuter@novell.com>
- To: <office@lists.oasis-open.org>
- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:03:24 +0100
Subject: Suggested ODF1.2 items
<!--X-Subject-Header-End-->
<!--X-Head-of-Message-->
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<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
<!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End-->
<!--X-Body-of-Message-->Suggested enhancement for OpenDocument V1.2
State's move to open document formats still not a mass migration
Tags: california, iso, lai, massachusetts, oasis, odf, officeopenxml, ooxml, opendocument, openxml, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.computerworld.com
- Eric Lai keesp pokign at that Massachusetts hornets nest. One of these days he's going to crack it open, and it will be back to square one for the ODF Community. Still missing from his research is the infoamous 300 page pilot study and accompanying web site where comments and professional observations document a year long study concernign the difficulties of implementing ODF solutions and making the migration. <br><br>post by garyedwards on 2007-06-09
The study was focused on OpenOffice, StarOffice, Novell Office, and a IBM WorkPlace prototype.<br><br>
The results of the year long pilot have never seen the public light of day. But ComputerWorld is one of the media orgs that successfully filed a court action to invoke the freedom of information act in Massachusetts. How come they can't find the Pilot Study?<br><br>
At the end of the pilot study period, Massachusetts issued their infamous RFi; the request for information regarding the possiblity of a ODF plugin for MSOffice! Meaning, the Pilot Study did not go well for the heroes of ODF - OpenOffice, StarOffice, Novell Office and WorkPlace. Instead, Massachusetts sought an ODF plugin that would no doubt extend the life of MSOffice for years to come. No rip out and replace here folks!<br><br>
~ge~
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Only a tiny fraction of the PCs at Massachusetts government agencies are able to use the Open Document Format (ODF) for Office Applications, despite an initial deadline of this month for making sure that all state agencies could handle the file format.Add Sticky Note
- Hey, nice comments!posted by garyedwards on 2007-06-09
Evermore Integrated Office
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 and saved by4 people -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.evermoresw.com
- Homepage for EIOffice, a complete JAVA clone of MSOffice. This stuff is excellent! Easily surpasses OpenOffice in terms of file format conversion and compatibilitiy. EIOffice is fully capable of "round tripping" documents with MSOffice users without compromising fideltiy. Supports UOF but not ODF or MOOXMLpost by garyedwards on 2007-04-27
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EIOffice includes the features found in Microsoft Office, plus a number of productivity features found nowhere else.
Slashdot | Pro-ODF Legislation Loses In Six States
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromit.slashdot.org
- Incredible. The tile alone says it all. And the poster commenting on IBM and secret disaster that happened in Massachusetts has it right. I wonder who that commenter is anyway?post by garyedwards on 2007-06-04
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Another document format is not needed. This was already obvious before blogs took off, but to be promoting now is unforgivably stupid and irresponsible. Try and explain to an average person why all the typing they just did cannot even be viewed in a Web browser, they will not get it. Saving the user's typing as DOC or ODF is a con. The storage of text, styled text, graphics, photos, even movies (MPEG-4 H.264-AAC) has been solved. Your document format is ready it is HTML 4.01 Strict, CSS 2.1, and JS 1.5, there is nothing in the 1980's technology of MS Word that cannot be stored this way.
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If this is the case then it greatly increases the scope of the bill from being a simple switch from MS Office to OpenOffice to a massive effort involving the definition of many new XML schemata, developing, testing and debugging software to handle the new schemata, creation of documentation, deployment of and training for the new software, etc., etc.
Microsoft trounces pro-ODF forces in state battles over open document formats
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 and saved by2 people -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.computerworld.com
- A must read. And yes, the ODF Vendors are the reason ODF lost. They didn't provide useful solutions. In fact, the applicaitons they proposed were seen by government CIO's as cstly and disruptive "rip out and replace" non starters. In California, CIO's asked if it was even possible to implement ODF!!!post by garyedwards on 2007-06-06
- Uh Oh. They got IBM dead to rights in Massachusetts. I guess the truth about Massachusetts will be told! Finally. ODF failed in Massachusetts because there isn't a reasonable means of implementing ODF. Same in California.post by garyedwards on 2007-06-04
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Microsoft trounces pro-ODF forces in state battles over open document formats
Eric Lai and Gregg Keizer
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June 03, 2007
(Computerworld) -
Keeping it private
The other problem, Mathers said, was the jargon-laden disinformation that committee members felt they were being fed by lobbyists for both IBM and Microsoft. Although lobbyists would tell the committee one thing in private, they got cold feet when asked to verify the information publicly, under oath. "Suddenly, nobody wanted to sign witness affirmation forms and testify," he said.
That undermined the credibility of each side, but it particularly damaged the position of ODF proponents. After Wyne testified publicly that in Massachusetts, only a handful of computers had thus far been converted over to using ODF, IBM declined to dispute her claims, Mathers said -- despite having earlier given "gleaming" reports on the progress of ODF in Massachusetts. "That's when I really started to question the whole bill," he said.
Mass. Set to Mix Office With ODF
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.computerworld.com
- The August 28th, 2006 article about Massachusetts decision to use addon plugins. ComputerWorld - Caarol Sliwapost by garyedwards on 2007-06-05
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Massachusetts last week officially confirmed that its executive agencies for now will continue using Microsoft Office instead of switching to alternative desktop applications. But by Jan. 1, in keeping with a controversial policy announced last year, the state plans to start adding plug-in software that will let its Office users create and save files in the industry-standard OpenDocument format.
» OpenDocument or OpenXML: Do you care? | Between the Lines | ZDNet.com
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromblogs.zdnet.com
- Excellent coverage of a very important interview!post by garyedwards on 2007-06-07
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A week or so ago, I published a podcast at IT Conversation with Scott Mace interviewing Gary Edwards about OpenDocument. Edwards is the president of the OpenDocument Foundation. OpenDocument Foundation is a non-profit that works to promote the OpenDocument file format–an XML file format for office documents.
There’s no question that businesses want an XML-based file format for office data. The question, naturally, is which XML-based file format. Microsoft has it’s own XML-based file format called OpenXML.
State's move to open document formats still not a mass migration
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.computerworld.com
- Use of ODF remains minimal on government PCs in Massachusettspost by garyedwards on 2007-06-08
Eric Lai ....... June 8, 2007
Bummer! Do you think IBM is silent on this because they are busy cutting sweetheart deals with MS? Are they going to hang Sun on this? I'm sure that by next week IBM will have to respond to ODEF. This just keeps getting better. So in both Texas and California they wonder if it's even possible to implement ODF solutions. No one wants to get into that hole with Massachusetts.
~ge~
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June 08, 2007 (Computerworld) -- Only a tiny fraction of the PCs at Massachusetts government agencies are able to use the Open Document Format (ODF) for Office Applications, despite an initial deadline of this month for making sure that all state agencies could handle the file format.
IBM undeterred by setbacks to ODF adoption | InfoWorld | News | 2007-06-08 | By China Martens, IDG News Service
Tags: california, davinci, interop, iso, massachusetts, oasis, odef, odf, ooxml, opendocument, politics, xml on 2007-06-09 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.infoworld.com
- Thus spoke the little Dutch Boy, his finger in the dike, his confidence large. Meanwhile, people with half a brain were heading for the high ground. California, Texas, Massachusetts and the EU IDABC come to mind. Hello bob! Can you say ODEF?post by garyedwards on 2007-06-08
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You might think the steady defeat of bills in several U.S. states to mandate the use of free interoperable file formats might
dampen the spirits of IBM, one of the prime supporters of ODF (OpenDocument Format). Far from it, said IBM's Bob Sutor, who
sees the recent news as par for the course in the evolution of any open standard.
MSFT: Let’s Do VHS Versus Betamax All Over
Tags: massachusetts, microsoft, odf, ooxml, opendocument, openxml on 2007-03-12 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromlnxwalt.wordpress.com
- Another great commentary from Walt Hucks. This time his target is the over the top self serving statements from Microsoft about consumers wanting "competition" between standards. I was a loser in the BetaMAX wars. At least SONY had an edge in those wars of claiming a somewhat, although leglible, advantge in video fidleity. Microsoft OOXML has no such advantage over ODF. None whatsoever.post by garyedwards on 2007-03-12
Walt once again exposes Microsoft as the company you can count on to treat customers as mindless idiots. Given the choice, customers would choose ODF over OOXML hands down, time after tiem, every time. But they are not given "the choice". Mcirosoft spends a lot of spin cycles complaining and whining about IBM and others not providing native support for OOXML. Incredibly, they do this while announcing loudly that they have no intention of ever supporting ODF nativiely in their own applications? What's u with that? Leveraging the monopoly. That's what.
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“You want the customers to vote with their wallets,” Hilf said.”The most healthy market environment is where there is competition.”
Keeping both sides honest - O\'Reilly XML Blog
Tags: massachusetts, microsoft, odf, ooxml, opendocument, openxml on 2007-03-12 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.oreillynet.com
- Finally, someone in Massachusetts is talking and it's the master, Louis Gutierrez. Wiki Ricki has some nice comments about the ComputerWorld interview with Louis. As have become his custom though, Rick once again carries the flag (or should i say water) for Microsoft. Rick's expertise in XML used to be the draw for his column. Now you have to parse through his comments, separating the nuggets of truth from the torren of bias. Paid bias. It's too bad. Rick was one of the best.post by garyedwards on 2007-03-12
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The former State Government CIO of Massachusetts (a state in USA) Louis Gutierrez has a worthwhile interview in Computerworld this week. What I like about the article in particular is that he seems clear that the role of govenment is not just to passively accept standards, but to pragmatically assess the suitability and impact and processes of each one. ISO makes “voluntary standards” not laws.
Gutierrez says the obvious: that there is a marked difference in the feature set between ODF and OpenXML (”straightforward simplicity” versus “feature-rich but very idiosyncratic diversty”): he does not trivialize the difference in coverage or scope between the two.
Q&A: Former Mass. CIO feels \'bittersweet pride\' after battles with Microsoft, legislature
Tags: massachusetts, microsoft, odf, ooxml, opendocument, openxml on 2007-03-12 -All Annotations (0) -About
more fromwww.computerworld.com
- Whoa, Wiki Ricki is right. This is a great article! A must read interview with Louis Gutierrez. I wonder though, since it was ComputerWorld and the Boston Globe that filed the August 2006 Freedom of Information Act invocation to get all the Massachusetts conversations and meetings, no doubt they were carryign some heavy ammunition into this interview. Up until this interview it's been next to impossible for the public or press to get truthful information. This is a good start, and i for one wonder just how far Massachusetts execs are willing to go with their public disclosures?post by garyedwards on 2007-03-12
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Q&A: Former Mass. CIO feels 'bittersweet pride' after battles with Microsoft, legislature
Gutierrez says he would make same choices again that he did in ODF and IT funding fights
Regrettable word choice -- Andy Updegrove's comment on "Microsoft releases FAQ on Ecma submission" | TalkBack on ZDNet
Tags: ecma, imported:del.icio.us, lampoon, massachusetts, msxml, odf on 2007-02-20 -All Annotations (0) -About
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The First Law of the Interent is that of interoperability. Interop ALWAYS comes first.
Interop trumps innovation!!!
This is why the Interent changes everything. Innovation takes place within the bounds of ineroperabiltiy. Vendors of course rely on innovation as the primary means of market differentiation. They would of course champion innovative features. Interop on the other hand is a leveling force.