George801's List: Atheists Meetup

• still due to the existence of matter/whatever and the problem of consciousnes
• why would that thing necessarily qualify for god status?
• hat does it explain to postulate a universe-creating "god" (whatever exactly that's supposed to mean) that we cannot already explain?
• the self-creation or necessary existence of such a complex entity is a "simpler"
• is that we really just don't know.
• It's a way of comforting ourselves by pretending that the unknown is known.

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• to support both science and satire that points out the silliness of religious belief and behavior.
• My favorite atheist author is
• Sam Harris
• Geert Wilder
• Islam that have lead extremists to oppose western values and to engage in terrorism.
• If a Muslim is a member of the Islamic group they should begin thinking critically about sustaining absurd religious beliefs inculcated by their families and culture.
• I did not think that was an issue. I never observed Sam Harris or even Geert Wilder or any member of Philly Atheists proclaim such a position.
• Who said all Muslims are Islamists or jihadists?

  • Reply to this.

  • Scott did.
• effort defending that approach from some who consider it to be an abusive and counterproductive way to approach religious people.

  • Tone has as much to do with it.
• And it seems to me that simple forthright disagreement with someone's beliefs is in no way abusive, and is in fact an essential component of all meaningful discourse.
• at our criticisms be ad argumentum rather than ad hominem (other than specific criticisms of the actions and speech of specific, clearly deserving individuals)
• Unlike simply disagreeing with their beliefs, painting them all as terrorists and barbarians crosses the line from reasonable debate to direct encouragement of such abuses.
• I am not for "demonizing Muslims."

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• I think that trying to claim that the "New Atheists" are only these five unfairly denigrates the phenomenon
• PZ Myers by claiming people like David Hume as New Atheist
• • I have no idea what he means by this and on a quick search couldn't find anything.
• claiming
• would undoubtedly be considered just as "dickish" by the modern tone trolls as anything Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Myers, Coyne, and so forth ever wrote.

  • Note - equivocation on the term "dickish".

  • I've felt this myself - Ingersol
• but we are claiming that the pearl-clutching over the evils of "New Atheism" is rather overblown,
• quite a lot to do with the exemption from criticism that religion has become all-too-used to receiving.
• it's ridiculous to call "New Atheism" new, so we're going to call it something even more ridiculously meaningless, in order to highlight this fact.
• on the narcissism front. He presents this nasty accusation with no justifying context whatsoever, and it seems to me that if he'd ever actually read a damn thing the prominent "New Atheists" write,

  • he clarifies it here.  http://heathen-hub.com/blog.php?b=483

  • I don't think  he's referring to the prominent writers, he's talking about online atheists in general.
• It is a flat-out lie that Coyne and Benson are claiming that no abusive atheists could ever possibly exist. What they are claiming is that there's a lot of vague claims floating around from the anti-Gnu side that the Gnu movement is so terribly evilly abusive
• it's in very vague, general terms, and when they're asked for specific examples, they fail to provide any, or provide only very feeble examples
• Tom Johnson, but was eventually discovered to be actually named Walter Smith) was revealed to be a serial liar, attention-seeker, and sock-puppeteer
• new logo graphic for themselves, forsooth
• "logo" is a joke, to point out once again how ridiculous the whole thing is.
• looks like a gnu's butt, for crying out loud

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• both extreme left "multiculturalism" and extreme right anti-Islamic viewpoints
• easily treated as simple exemplars of their ethnic/religious class.
• Thoughtless multiculturalism
• It is considered wrong to assert that some traditions *cannot* be permitted to continue in a free society.
• a "clash of civilizations" ideology equally promotes religious/ethnic essentialism and false equivalences between different social orderings.
• there is an assumption that one's role in society is completely determined by the circumstances of one's birth
• my life is what I make of it
• If I choose to follow (my understanding of) some particular cultural tradition, that's my business,
• whether they would steal our freedom in the name of "respecting all cultures" or "defeating the enemies of 'our' culture".
• it's important to try to understand other cultures sympathetically and with full respect for the non-otherness of people who practice these cultures.
• Simply demonizing bad practices (such as female genital mutilation)
• the people themselves are not necessarily evil,

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• Richard Reid's mother
• if they make harmful decisions then we assign consequences after the fact.
• why I like the Patriots Act
• when policy makers in the Netherlands see a worldwide pattern of violence, terrorist threats
• allowing the government to abrogate civil rights when they detect what they consider to be a pattern of violence correlated with a particular ethnically or religiously defined group
• mob hysteria
• part of an historical pattern of violence supported by a militant Islamic nationalism represented best by Al Qaeda.
• I can't tell how we can ensure that this particular sacrifice of freedom which you are asking for from other people in order to protect your own safety
• The Patriots Act authorizes suspending some civil rights that allow law enforcement personnel to protect human beings from harm perpetrated by persons who have taken advantage of "essential freedoms".

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• Not everyone cares to become a student of international affairs or to gain deep insight into what made Al Qaeda do this while groups of Muslims celebrated in the streets.
• These groups emerge from teachings and readings in the Qur'an
• the Qur'an is a piece of garbage
• Chris Hitchens from a debate in Ewing, NJ

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• The research shows atheists know more about scripture than Christians.
• may be true about the Muslims too.

• he singles out Islam
• have the courage to speak up assertively
• i really don't think he "singles out Islam."
• it's one thing to rag on the majority.
• scorn heaped by that majority upon some despised minority is the act of a coward. Muslims in western countries are a small minority, most of whom are struggling immigrants deserving of our compassion and assistance rather than harassment as potential terrorists.
• those people are not necessarily themselves our enemies,
• On the subject of treating Islamists as a ligitimate minority,

  • aak, Islamist is a specific subset
• I am a minority as an atheist and anti-theist
• I thought atheists experience vicarious pleasure in listening to the ridiculing of these tenets.

  • Odd way of putting it.
• my mirror neurons really light up

  • As usual he doesn't know what the fk he's talking about
• who simply are apathetic (or shall we say, apatheistic) about criticizing religion.

  • The ususal asshole bullshit
• to further marginalize and demonize the members of what is already a maltreated and distrusted minority group in the west.
• I'm particularly sensitive to this precisely *because*, as an atheist, I am a member of such a minority group myself,
• Pat Condell (like Sam Harris, and like the anti-NYC mosque crowd) sometimes goes too far towards demonizing Muslims.
• I think P.Z. Myers is much better at walking that line than Pat Condell and Sam Harris seem to be.

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• Christians armed with a microphone, a few Bibles, and a sign that read "Evolution is a Lie"
• "Prove that he doesn't"
• I told him that I could fly.
• Then I asked him to prove that I couldn't. He made it very clear at this point that he was not the one who would have to prove it.
• He told me that I was being too LOGICAL!

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• As an atheist I prefer to deal with facts that become visible.
• I like to know the specifics rather than make assumptions based on invisible discrimination.
• What could be wrong with writing legislation that prohibits absurd passages: kill the blasphemer, infidels, gays, female nonvirgins/adulterers, or apostates;
• This is not censorship of a book

  • red herring
• categorical imperative (Immanuel Kant)

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• I was in Palestine volunteering with the International Solidarity Movement
• I was in Palestine volunteering with the International Solidarity Movement in 2002
• the kaffiyeh is a national, not a religious symbol
• wearing it regularly during cold weather after I came back,
• Immigration restrictions may reduce problems of all kinds
• Immigration restrictions may reduce problems of all kinds
• Why would anyone walk around wearing Muslim clothing unless it was to incite people?
• my contention is that there are many national security measures that best protect civil liberties in a Democracy and protect us from more violence better than your excessively liberal notions.
• Would you suggest instructing airline personnel to ignore suspicions?
• Yet we see that the majority of Americans do support these steps as necessary despite far-left mudslinging

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• The idea of belief in God is faith.

  • This is a blanket statemetn and ont necessarily true.
• When atheists call for evidence of the divine, we are asking for something that no believer has, or should have.

  • "Nor should have" - now you've shifted the ocnversation completely to an ethical assertion. What is the basis?
    
    If a god or gods came along and spoke to us, we'd have evidence.  Period.  Why "shouldn't" we have this evidence?
• "believe in evolution."
• If you have evidence, why do you need faith?

  • sources needed.
• Therefore, asking for evidence of God, or gods, is counter-productive, because evidence negates faith, a

  • counter productive to what?

  • this si simply one version of theology.  It is not universal.
• the believer has no evidence, and can never have evidence

  • gnostic statement.
• WHY they believe as they do, in spite of evidence to the contrary.

  • how is this different?
• Try reading these five books
• The bible

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• fundraising walk for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society
• Foundation Beyond Belief
• Christopher Hitchens
• 6 members so far, with Robert Caldwell as the captain
• Hitchens' Hikers
• . Even people who are not necessarily religious themselves are often uncomfortable promoting explicitly freethought causes
• don't have much money to donate
• silly forfeit
• I've had long hair
• sixteen inches long
• it would probably look even better on some little kid who has alopecia, or burns, or cancer.
• twelve inches
• . In that happy eventuality, I will donate all sixteen inches of my hair
• donations are being matched dollar-for-dollar by Foundation Beyond Belief.
• LLS has a pretty decent rating on Charity Navigator
• e. A Humanist group in Delaware is also fundraising
• competition
• join the team as walkers/fundraisers
• Delaware Humanists are not competition
• Osteoarthritis and degenerative disc disease keep me desk-bound most of the time
• New Jersey Humanist Network
• Having numbers at the walk is another
• personally given over $100 to the cause

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